>> A LOOK AT WHY OHIO WENT FROM BLUE TO RED.

>> WELCOME TO COLUMBUS ON THE RECORD -I'M MIKE THOMPSON.

THIS WEEK A SPECIAL PROGRAM WHERE AN OLD FRIEND OF THE SHOW WILL HELP US LOOK BACK AT A TIME WHEN OHIO WAS A BLUE STATE.

OR AT LEAST A PURPLE STATE.

AND EXPLORE THE REASONS WHY OHIO HAS BECOME PRETTY DEEPLY RED.

WE WELCOME BACK DALE BUTLAND YOU MAY KNOW HIM AS A LONG-TIME REGULAR PANELIST ON THIS SHOW BUT HE SPENT 20 YEARS WORKING FOR SENATOR JOHN GLENN, AND THEN MANY YEARS HELPING GUIDE PROGRESSIVE CAMPAIGNS AND CANDIDATES IN OHIO.

DALE IS OUT WITH A BOOK -WHEN OHIO WAS BLUE -MY 20 YEAR JOURNEY WITH JOHN GLENN.

IT'S A GREAT READ FOR THOSE WHO STUDY AND FOLLOW POLITICS CLOSELY.

PROVIDING A PERSONAL INSIDE LOOK AT HOW THE SYSTEM WORKS OR IS SUPPOSED TO WORK.

DALE WELCOME BACK TO COLUMBUS ON THE RECORD.

>> IT IS GOOD TO BE HERE, IT HAS BEEN A MINUTE.

>> YES, WE MISSED YOU, IT IS GOOD TO HAVE YOU BACK HERE.

YOU STARTED AS A SPEECHWRITER FOR JOHN GLENN IN THE EARLY 80s, OHIO WAS PRETTY BLUE, ALL THE DEMOCRATIC AND STATEWIDE OFFICES WERE HELD BY DEMOCRATS, THE MAJORITY OF CONGRESS, THE HOUSE, AND THE SUPREME COURT, WHAT WERE DEMOCRATS DOING RIGHT AND WHAT WERE REPUBLICANS DOING WRONG DURING THOSE DAYS?

>> I THINK THERE WERE A COUPLE OF FACTORS, ONE, YOU HAVE TO REMEMBER, THIS STARTED IN THE MID-70s, JOHN GLENN WAS ELECTED IN 1974, WATERGATE CAST A SHADOW, THAT SCANDAL I THINK THE REPUBLICANS FOR MANY YEARS WERE AFTER THAT, THAT IS ONE PART.

THE OTHER PART, WE DIDN'T HAVE THE POLARIZATION THAT WE HAVE NOW AND THERE ARE A NUMBER OF REASONS FOR THAT POLARIZATION WHICH I SUSPECT WE MIGHT BE TALKING ABOUT BUT THE POINT IS IN THE ABSENCE OF THAT, CANDIDATE QUALITY MATTERED A LOT.

JOHN GLENN WAS A QUALITY CANDIDATE, HE WAS A WAR HERO, A LOT OF VETERANS REMEMBERED HIS WAR HEROICS IN WORLD WAR II AND KOREA, AND OF COURSE HE WAS A NATIONAL HERO BECAUSE HE WAS THE FIRST AMERICAN IN THE SPACE RACE TO THE MOON WITH THE SOVIETS, HOWARD WAS VERY DIFFERENT BUT HE WAS A POPULIST, HE WAS AN ECONOMIC POPULIST WHO BUILT A REPUTATION FOR STANDING UP FOR THE LITTLE GUY, SO THOSE ARE THE KINDS OF QUALITY CANDIDATES THAT I THINK IT TOOK TO WIN.

>> OHIO IS A TICKET SPLITTING STATE, YOU MENTIONED 1980, RONALD REAGAN, JIMMY CARTER AND THAT ELECTION, AND JOHN GLENN HAD 70% OF 30%.

>> YEAH, WELL IT WAS A VERY PURPLE STATE, IT WASN'T UNUSUAL AT ALL BACK IN THOSE DAYS FOR OHIOANS TO VOTE FOR ONE CANDIDATE FOR PRESIDENT, LET'S SAY ON THE REPUBLICAN SIDE AND VOTE FOR DEMOCRATS FOR THE SENATOR OF THE HOUSE.

YOU SAW THAT OVER AND OVER AGAIN THROUGHOUT THE 70s, THE 80s, AND NOT SO MUCH IN THE 90s BECAUSE THAT IS WHEN THINGS BEGAN TO TURN.

BUT THAT WAS COMMONPLACE BACK THEN.

>> WERE THE 80s AN ANOMALY BECAUSE LOOKING BACK, ALL OF SEVEN OF OHIO'S PRESIDENTS THAT HAVE GONE TO THE WHITE HOUSE WERE REPUBLICANS, FROM 1900 TO 1990, THE GOVERNOR'S OFFICE GOES BACK AND FORTH, SOMETIMES 12 YEARS A PARTY WOULD HOLD, THEN GO BACK TO THE OTHER PARTY.

WITH THE 80s, WHERE THE DEMOCRATS DOMINATED, WAS AN OUTLIER?

>> PROBABLY, LIKE YOU SAID BEFORE, IT IS A MIRROR IMAGE OF WHAT IT IS NOW, NOW REPUBLICANS CONTROL EVERYTHING.

IN FACT, WHEN MIKE DeWINE COMPLETES HIS LAST TERM IN OFFICE NOW, THE REPUBLICANS WOULD HAVE HELD THE GOVERNOR'S OFFICE OF 32 OF THE LAST 36 YEARS, THE SAME IS TRUE FOR MOST OF THE EXECUTIVE OFFICES IN THE STATE.

SO I THINK WHAT HAPPENED IN THE 80s PERHAPS WAS A LITTLE BIT OF AN ANOMALY, AND THAT WAS A GOOD TIME TO BE DOING YOUR CAREER BACK THEN IF YOU ARE SOMEONE LIKE ME WHO WAS A DEMOCRATIC STAFFER.

>> BOB KLEIN, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST IS ON THE SHOW A LOT, HE CAME IN DURING THAT TIME, AND IT WAS LIKE THE WILDERNESS BECAUSE REPUBLICANS WERE GETTING BEAT ALL THE TIME.

FOR NOW, IT SEEMS SO STRANGE IF YOU ARE A DEMOCRAT.

>> IT DOES, THERE ARE PEOPLE, PARTICULARLY YOUNGER PEOPLE WHO DIDN'T COME OF AGE UNTIL MAYBE 2016, A NUMBER OF YEARS AGO AND THEY DON'T REMEMBER A TIME WHEN OHIO WAS NOT THE BREAD BUT THERE CERTAINLY WAS THAT TIME AS YOU SAID DURING THE 80s.

>> YOU MENTIONED IN YOUR BOOK THAT JOHN GLENN WASN'T PARTISAN AT ALL AND HE RAN FOR PRESIDENT, AHEAD OF THE PRIMARY, HE WOULD TAKE PROGRESSIVE STANCE WHEN HE BECAME TO BE SEEN AS A DEMOCRAT IN OHIO.

>> I THINK PREVIOUSLY HE HAD TRANSCENDED PARTISANSHIP ALMOST BECAUSE HE WAS A NATIONAL HERO.

IT IS REALLY HARD FOR YOUNG PEOPLE TO UNDERSTAND WHAT A BIG DEAL THAT WAS TO BE THE FIRST AMERICAN DURING THE SPACE RACE WITH THE SOVIETS.

I ALWAYS TELL PEOPLE AND THEY ARE SHOCKED TO HEAR THAT WHEN HE HAD HIS PARADE IN NEW YORK CITY AFTER HE DID THAT, THERE WERE MORE TONS OF CONFETTI DROPPED DURING THE PARADE FOR JOHN GLENN THEN THERE WAS IN ANY PARADE BEFORE OR SINCE.

IT WAS A VERY BIG DEAL.

SO I THINK HE TRANSCENDED PARTISANSHIP, BUT WHEN HE RAN FOR PRESIDENT, NOT ONLY DID HE HAVE TO TAKE FOSTER'S THAT -- POSTURES THAT MADE IT CLEAR HE WAS DEMOCRAT BUT REMEMBER, HE WOULD HAVE TAKEN ON RONALD REAGAN HAD HE GOTTEN THE NOMINATION BUT RONALD REAGAN WAS A VERY POPULAR PERSON PARTICULARLY ON NONCONSERVATIVE VOTERS.

>> THE DEMOCRATIC PRIMARY, HE DIDN'T FARE WELL, THAT'S BECAUSE HE WASN'T AS FAR LEFT, HE WOULD HAVE BEEN PERHAPS A BETTER GENERAL ELECTION CANDIDATE, IF HE WAS IN THE PRIMARY.

>> YES, JOHN WAS A MODERATE BY NATURE AND HIS POLICY PREFERENCES ALWAYS SKEWED TOWARD WHAT HE CALLED THE SENSIBLE CENTER, THAT IS A VERY APPEALING PLACE TO BE FOR A GENERAL ELECTION BUT NOT SO MUCH IN THE PRIMARIES WHERE THE PROCESS IS CONTROLLED OFTEN TIMES BY PARTY ACTIVISTS.

>> WE WILL GET TO IT BUT NOW THE PUBLIC POSITION IS EVEN WORSE, YOU CAN'T EVEN HAVE A WIDTH OF A MODERATE.

>> NO, IN FACT, WHAT HAS BEEN LOST I THINK SINCE THE TIME OF JOHN GLENN AND PEOPLE LIKE THEM IN THAT PERIOD OF TIME IS THAT BOTH JOHN GLENN AND MENTZINBAUM, THEY BELIEVED IN COMPROMISE, IT WAS THE LIFEBLOOD OF DEMOCRACY, THAT THE SYSTEM CAN EVEN SURVIVE.

SO THEY WERE WILLING TO COMPROMISE, THEY LOOKED AT POLITICS DIFFERENTLY THAN I THINK PEOPLE DO TODAY.

THEY DIDN'T SEE POLITICS AS WAR, THEY DIDN'T SEE THEIR OPPONENTS AS TREASONOUS ENEMIES AND THEY DIDN'T YOU LOSING THE ELECTION AS PROOF THAT IT WAS RIGGED OR STOLEN.

SO I THINK WE NEED TO GET BACK TO THE IDEA OF COMPROMISE, IT IS NOT A DIRTY WORD, IT'S THE ONLY WAY WE CAN REALLY SURVIVE AS A DEMOCRACY.

>> LET'S LOOK AT SOME OF THE REASONS WHY DEMOCRATS LOST GROUND IN OHIO.

AND THEN LOST THE STATE ALL TOGETHER.

POLICY, ECONOMICS, TECHNOLOGY, DEMOGRAPHICS HAVE ALL PLAYED A ROLE.

IF YOU WERE TO PICK ONE THING, WHAT HAS BEEN THE GIFT OF REPUBLICANS IN THE LAST 10 OR 12 YEARS?

>> IT IS BOTH AN ECONOMIC DIMENSION AND CULTURAL DIMENSION IN MY VIEW, ECONOMICALLY IT PROBABLY STARTED WITH NAFTA, WHICH IS A TRADE AGREEMENT, IT ACCELERATED WITH THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY'S EMBRACE OF GLOBALIZATION WHICH WAS SUPPOSED TO BRING ENORMOUS BENEFITS WITH EVERYBODY, WHILE THE BENEFITS SHOWED UP BUT THEY WEREN'T EVEN THE DISTRIBUTED, PEOPLE AT THE TOP DID REALLY WELL AND PEOPLE AT THE BOTTOM DIDN'T, SO WHAT HAPPENED FOR THINGS LIKE NAFTA AND GLOBALIZATION, THE DEINDUSTRIALIZATION, YOU HAD MASSIVE JOB LOSS PARTICULARLY IN THE MANUFACTURING SECTOR, YOU HAD HOLLOWED OUT THE MIDSIZED TOWNS AND WIDENING OF THE WEALTH GAP.

SO THAT IS ON THE ECONOMIC SIDE.

>> JOHN GLENN, AGAINST NAFTA DURING THE FIRST VOTE AFTER BILL CLINTON BECAME PRESIDENT, WHAT WERE THOSE DISCUSSIONS LIKE?

THERE HAD TO BE A LOT OF PRESSURE FROM THE WHITE HOUSE TO VOTE FOR IT.

>> WELL, THERE WAS BUT I THINK IF YOU ARE A GOOD POLITICIAN, YOU ALSO LISTEN TO YOUR CONSTITUENTS AND THERE WAS A LOT OF SUSPICION ABOUT NAFTA AND CERTAINLY LATER ON AFTER THEY HAD GONE, THERE WAS SUSPICION ABOUT GLOBALIZATION.

BUT I THINK, YOU KNOW, I THINK THAT IF I CAN GO BACK AND WAVE A MAGIC WAND, IT WOULD BE THAT DEMOCRATS, WHAT WE ALWAYS NEED TO DO IS WE NEED TO STAND, WE NEED TO GO TO OUR ROOSEVELT ROOTS WHERE WE WERE CHAMPIONS OF THE WORKING CLASS.

APART FROM THE ECONOMICS, THE CULTURAL DIMENSION WAS THAT WE WENT FROM THAT PART CHAMPION OF THE WORKING CLASS TO THE PARTY THAT WAS VIEWED AS THE PARTY OF THE COLLEGE EDUCATED ELITES, WHICH OFTEN TIMES LOOKED DOWN THEIR NOSE TO THE WORKING CLASS AND EMBRACED CULTURAL ISSUES THAT WERE OUT OF STEP WITH THE MAINSTREAM.

>> FROM THE 1988 DEMOCRATIC CONVENTION SPEECH, HE INTRODUCED THE VP NOMINEE, BENSON, WHERE HE WAS CRITICIZED IN THE TRADE POLICIES, HE WROTE HENSON BELIEVES WHAT OTHER COUNTRIES TAKE ADVANTAGE OF US, YOU CANNOT TALK LIKE RAMBO AND ACT LIKE BAMBI, THAT SOUNDS LIKE SOMETHING PRESIDENT TRUMP WOULD SAY NO.

>> WELL, MAYBE AND I WOULD SAY THE REASON TRUMP DID VERY WELL AMONG WORKING-CLASS VOTERS IS BECAUSE DEMOCRATS HAD LEFT THE FIELD TO HIM IN MANY WAYS.

IF I COULD RETURN FOR A MOMENT, BECAUSE IT GETS REALLY IMPORTANT.

LOOK, AS DEMOCRATS, IT IS IN OUR DNA THAT WE ARE GOING TO STAND UP FOR THE LITTLE GUY, FOR THE MARGINALIZED AND THE PEOPLE WHO LIVE IN THE SHADOWS OF SOCIETY.

WE WILL NEVER AND WE SHOULD NEVER JUMP ON THE LET'S BEAT UP ON THE TRANS CANADA BANDWAGON, BUT WE CANNOT AFFORD TO LET PEOPLE BELIEVE THAT WE CARE MORE ABOUT PRONOUNS THAN WE DO THE KITCHEN TABLE ISSUES THAT AFFECT EVERYBODY.

ONE THING THAT WE FORGOT, MIKE, OR MAYBE DIDN'T LEARN IS THAT POLITICS IS DOWNSTREAM FROM CULTURE AND IF PEOPLE BELIEVE THAT YOU ARE CULTURALLY OUT OF STEP, THEY AREN'T GOING TO LISTEN TO YOU ON MUCH OF ANYTHING ELSE.

>> LOOK AT THE LAST CAMPAIGN, SHERROD BROWN LOST BECAUSE HE GOT HAMMERED ON THE TRANS ISSUE.

BROWN IS A POPULIST THAT OPPOSES THESE TRADE DEALS, LIKE SENATOR GLENN DID BUT HE WAS PAINTED INTO A CORNER.

>> AND BY THE WAY, THAT IS INSTRUCTIVE, TO SHOW YOU HOW BAD IT HAS GOTTEN, IN TERMS OF THE WORKING CLASS, IN 1992, FOR JOHN'S LAST RE-ELECTION CAMPAIGN, OUR BEST COUNTY IN THE STATE WAS BELMONT COUNTY WHICH IS ALONG THE OHIO RIVER, BLUE-COLLAR WORKING CLASS COUNTY.

JOHN WON BELMONT COUNTY BY 27 POINTS.

SHERROD BROWN IN 2024 LOST BELMONT BY 34 POINTS.

THAT IS A LITTLE BETTER THAN 60 POINT SWING IN WHAT, THREE DECADES.

>> IT'S PROBABLY THE DEMOGRAPHICS, TOO.

THE UNIONS HAVE SHRUNK, NOT JUST BECAUSE OF TRADE DEALS AND AUTOMATION AND THINGS LIKE THAT, THE BOOMERS, THE GENERATION HAS BEEN GETTING OLD, BUT THAT'S JUST THE WAY IT GOES, IN OHIO'S POPULATION, IT HAS CHANGED IN THOSE YEARS.

>> YES, IN FACT, WITH POLARIZATION, THE DEMOGRAPHICS OF OHIO HAVE REALLY COME FRONT AND CENTER.

A COUPLE YEARS AGO, A FELLOW FROM THE NEW YORK TIMES CALLED ME AND ASKED ME, HOW COME OTHER STATES AROUND OHIO, MICHIGAN, WISCONSIN AND PENNSYLVANIA, THEY WENT FOR TRUMP IN 16 BUT IN 18, 20, 22, THEY CAME BACK BLUE BUT OHIO NEVER DID, WHY IS THAT?

THE ANSWER IS, OUR POPULATION IS OLDER, WHITER AND LESS EDUCATED THAN THE POPULATIONS OF THOSE OTHER THREE STATES I JUST TALKED ABOUT AND NOT ONLY THAT, WE ARE LOSING POPULATION WITH THE EXCEPTION OF GREATER COLUMBUS AND TO A LESSER EXTENT, CINCINNATI.

WE ARE LOSING POPULATION RELATIVE TO OTHER STATES, THE OHIO DEPARTMENT OF DEVELOPMENT SAYS CURRENT TRENDS HOLD BY 2050, WE WILL LOSE ABOUT 6% OF OUR POPULATION WHEREAS THE NATION AS A WHOLE WILL GAIN ABOUT 17, WHAT DOES THAT MEAN, WHO IS LEADING OHIO, YOUNGER BETTER EDUCATED VOTERS WHO ARE GOING ELSEWHERE FOR BETTER OPPORTUNITIES AND WHO IS STAYING BEHIND?

OLDER, WHITER, LESS EDUCATED PEOPLE.

SO THAT OLDER, WHITER AND LESS EDUCATED IS THE PROFILE OF THE TRUMP LOADER AS WE CAN FIGURE OUT A WAY TO GET BACK TO THE WORKING CLASS, I THINK IT IS GOING TO BE VERY DIFFICULT FOR US GOING FORWARD.

>> PARTISAN POLITICS HAS ALWAYS HAD AN EBB AND FLOW.

ONE PARTY WINS, THEN THE OTHER PARTY WINS BUT THE TONE OF POLITICS HAS CHANGED.

MODERATES ARE SCARCE.

COMPROMISE HAS ALL BUT DISSAPPEARED.

YOU WROTE THAT JOHN GLENN DIDN'T HAVE ANY POLITICAL ENEMIES, BUT HE HAD SOME SERIOUS DEMOGRAPHIC DISAGREEMENTS, ESPECIALLY WITH DEMOCRATS IN OFFICE.

>> THERE'S ALWAYS GOING TO BE DIFFERENCE OF OPINION, BACK IN THE DAY, DEMOCRATS AND REPUBLICANS USED TO ARGUE OVER POLICY ISSUES, WE WOULD ARGUE OVER WHAT IS THE BEST POLICY TO FIGHT INFLATION OR PUT PEOPLE BACK TO WORK.

WHAT HAS HAPPENED IN RECENT YEARS IS, THE BORDER IS ON THE CRAZY I THINK AND I WE HAVE TO GET BACK TO SOME SEMBLANCE OF NORMALITY.

WITH REGARD TO THE TONE OF POLITICS CHANGE, THE HARSH TONE NOW, THAT IS I THINK DUE ALMOST ENTIRELY TO THE POLARIZATION THAT WE FIND IN OUR COUNTRY.

YOU HAVE TO REMEMBER, BACK IN THE 80s AND EVEN BEFORE THAT, WHEN I WAS GROWING UP AND MAYBE WHEN YOU WERE GROWING UP, THE NEWS WAS A SHARED NATIONAL EXPERIENCE.

NEWSPAPERS AS WELL AS TELEVISION, BACK IN THOSE DAYS, THERE WAS ABC, NBC AND CBS, EVERYBODY GOT THE SAME, WITH SLIGHTLY DIFFERENT TAKES, BUT THE SAME BASIC VERSION OF THE NEWS.

WITH THE ADVENT OF IDEOLOGICALLY DRIVEN CABLE NETWORKS LIKE FOX OR MS NOW, WITH THE COMING OF SOCIAL MEDIA WHICH ARE FIRE HOSES OF MISINFORMATION AND CONSPIRACY THEORIES AND SO FORTH, NOW WE HAVE SILOED OURSELVES INTO THESE IDEOLOGICAL COCOONS ALMOST WHERE WHAT WE BELIEVE IS NEVER CHALLENGED, IT'S ALWAYS REINFORCED.

>> CONSERVATIVES MIGHT ARGUE THAT THE THREE NETWORKS AND THE NEW YORK TIMES AND WASHINGTON POST, BACK IN THOSE DAYS, IT MADE SOMETHING LIKE FOX NEWS ATTRACTIVE TO THOSE VIEWERS FROM A MORE CONSERVATIVE PERSPECTIVE AT FIRST, NOW IT IS VERY PARTISAN AND BOTH NETWORKS CHOOSE FACTS THAT HELP THEIR ARGUMENTS.

IS THERE AN ARGUMENT TO THAT, IN THE 70s AND 80s, EVEN BEFORE, IN THE 60s THAT THE CONSERVATIVES DIDN'T FEEL LIKE THEY WERE REFLECTING THE NEWS?

>> I DON'T THINK SO.

I KNOW A LOT OF PEOPLE FEEL THAT WAY BUT WHEN YOU LOOK BACK, RONALD REAGAN CARRIED 49 STATES AND HE GOT THE ENDORSEMENTS OF A LOT OF MAINSTREAM NEWSPAPERS, TELEVISION STATIONS AND SO ON SO I'M NOT SURE THERE IS THAT IDEOLOGICAL BENT TOWARD THE LEFT THAT A LOT OF PEOPLE ACCUSE THE MAINSTREAM MEDIA OF HAVING.

THERE'S NO QUESTION NOW THAT WITH THESE IDEOLOGICALLY DRIVEN CABLE NETWORKS AND THE SOCIAL MEDIA PLATFORMS AND SO FORTH, THERE IS NO FRESHER BUT, I THINK IT IS BASICALLY DESTRUCTIVE TOWARD OUR POLITICAL SYSTEM.

>> YOU TALK ABOUT THE FAMOUS CASE, YOU WERE WORKING FOR HOWARD METZENBAUM AT THE TIME, BEING SOFT ON CHILD PORNOGRAPHY AND THAT WAS A HUGE DEAL, YOU TALKED ABOUT SCRAMBLING TO USE FOX MACHINES TO SEND SCRIPTS AND TWO DAYS LATER YOU GOT THE AD ON THE AIR, NOW TWO DAYS SEEMS LIKE AN ETERNITY, IT SEEMS LIKE SOMEBODY CAN PUT A YOUTUBE VIDEO OUT AND YOU CAN RESPOND IN MINUTES NOW.

>> YES, PARTICULARLY FOR YOUNGER VIEWERS, IT IS HARD TO REMEMBER A TIME BEFORE CELL PHONES AND THE INTERNET AND ALL THAT BUT BACK IN THE 80s, THERE WAS NONE, FAX MACHINES WOULD PASS FOR HIGH-TECH BACK IN THE DAY AND IT WASN'T JUST HAVING TO GET REMARKS TO JOHN, IT WAS ALSO GETTING IT TO THE NEWS MEDIA BECAUSE WE HAD TO DEFEND OURSELVES AGAINST THAT CHARGE BECAUSE IF IT EVER STUCK, ALTHOUGH PHYSICALLY VOTERS TODAY HAVE BECOME AN MIRRORED TOO MUCH WORSE ATTACKS THAN WHAT YOU SAW THEN BUT BACK THEN THAT WAS A VERY BIG DEAL AND HERE'S THE OTHER BIG THING, MIKE, VOTERS BACK IN THOSE DAYS TENDED TO TRUST THE MEDIA AS BEING SORT OF EVENHANDED ARBITERS.

AND IF THEY CONCLUDED THAT AN ATTACK LIKE THIS ONE WAS BELOW THE BELT, AND UNJUSTIFIED AND THEY SAID SO, VOTERS WOULD TYPICALLY MAKE THE OFFENDER PAY AT THE POLLS WHEN THE ELECTION ROLLED AROUND.

I'M NOT SURE THAT IS TRUE ANYMORE, I'M NOT SURE THAT FACTS MATTER AS MUCH AS THEY USED TO AND CERTAINLY ATTACKS DON'T MOVE VOTERS THE WAY THEY USED TO EITHER, EVEN IF IT FALLS.

>> IS IT IMPOSSIBLE NOW TO REACH AN AGREEMENT ON A BUDGET BILL OR AVOID A GOVERNMENT SHUTDOWN OR TO SOLVE SOCIAL SECURITY WHICH NEEDS TO BE SOLVED IN THE NEXT 10 YEARS?

>> NOW WE ARE GETTING INTO AN AREA, IN THE LATTER PART OF THE BOOK I TALK ABOUT REFORMS THAT WOULD HAVE TO BE MADE I THINK, ONE OF THEM IS GETTING RID OF THE LEGISLATIVE FILIBUSTER IN THE SENATE.

WHAT YOU JUST TALKED ABOUT, GETTING ANY SORT OF SUBSTANTIVE LEGISLATION PASSED IN THE SENATE REQUIRES A SUPER MAJORITY OF 60 VOTES.

THAT IS NOT WHAT OUR FOUNDERS INTENDED AND WE KNOW THAT BECAUSE THE CONSTITUTION THEY WROTE IDENTIFIED ONLY FIVE THINGS THAT REQUIRE A SUPER MAJORITY.

FOR EVERYTHING ELSE INCLUDING LEGISLATION, JUST A SIMPLE MAJORITY WAS NECESSARY.

WHAT HAS HAPPENED NOW IS A PRESCRIPTION FOR GRIDLOCK IN AN ACTION, CONGRESS JUST WENT OUT OF OFFICE IN JANUARY OF 25, THE LEAST PRODUCTIVE CONGRESS SINCE 1860 JUST BEFORE THE CIVIL WAR.

IT'S BECAUSE THINGS GET BOTTLED UP IN THE SENATE.

YOU CAN'T PASS ANYTHING UNLESS IT TAKES 60 VOTES.

>> THE DEMOCRATS WITH THE POWER THEY HAVE NOW, THEY HAVE THE RIGHT TO FILIBUSTER.

>> IF YOU GET RID OF THE FILIBUSTER, DOESN'T THAT ENHANCE THE CHANCE THAT A TERRIBLE LEGISLATION MIGHT BE PASSED?

YES, BUT IT WOULD RID THE SYSTEM OF ONE OF THE MOST GLARING VESTIGES OF ANTI- AUTHORITARIANISM FOR ONE, IT WOULD GET RID OF GRIDLOCK AND I THINK YOU COULD MAKE THE CASE, IF THE VOTERS PUT A PARTY IN POWER, THE VOTERS HAVE A RIGHT TO EXPECT THAT THOSE PEOPLE WOULD BE ALLOWED TO ENACT THE LEGISLATIVE AGENDA.

IF THE VOTERS AREN'T HAPPY WITH THAT, THEY ARE FREE TO TOSS THEM OUT THE NEXT TIME AROUND BUT IN THE MEANTIME, YOU CAN'T SIMPLY BOTTLE UP EVERYTHING THAT IS GOING DOWN BECAUSE AS I SAY, YOU GET NOTHING DONE.

>> LET'S LOOK AT SOME OF THE OTHER WAYS WE COULD GET OUT OF THIS.

WE ALL THINK THIS IS NEW.

AMERICANS HAVE BEEN THROUGH THIS BEFORE.

WE LIVED THROUGH WATERGATE.

SEVERE STRIFE IN THE LATE 1960'S WITH THE VIETNAM WAR.

THE GUILDED AGE LET TO A POPULIST REVOLT OF SORTS.

AND OF COURSE.

WE SURIVE THE REAL REVOLT -THE CIVIL WAR.

IS THIS PERIOD REALLY ANY DIFFERENT?

YOU ARE A STUDENT OF HISTORY.

>> LOOK, OUR SITUATION IS UNDENIABLY FRAUGHT BUT AS YOU JUST POINTED OUT AND THIS IS WHAT GIVES ME HOPE, THIS IS THE WAY I CONCLUDED MY BOOK, I'M OPTIMISTIC BECAUSE WHEN YOU LOOK BACK, OVER 250 YEARS WE HAVE FACED A CIVIL WAR.

WE HAVE FACED PANDEMICS, A GREAT DEPRESSION, TWO WORLD WARS, A LOT OF THINGS WHERE PEOPLE WEREN'T SURE IF WE WERE GOING TO BE ABLE TO MAKE IT OUT OF THESE THINGS.

NOT ONLY DID WE MANAGE TO MUDDLE THROUGH AND SURVIVE, WE EMERGED ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THOSE THINGS STRONGER THAN WE WERE BEFORE.

>> BUT IT TOOK A CALAMITY, YOU MENTIONED THE LEAST PRODUCTIVE CONGRESS WAS THE ONE BEFORE THE CIVIL WAR.

YOU COULD ARGUE THAT THE SUCCESSES OF THE 1800S AND 1900 LED TO THE WORLD WARS WHICH SURROUNDED A GREAT DEPRESSION, IT DOESN'T TAKE A CALAMITY TO BRING US TOGETHER?

>> WELL, I THINK WE ARE ALREADY HAVING THESE CALAMITIES NOW, CERTAINLY NOTHING LIKE THE CIVIL WAR ALTHOUGH IT IS DISTURBING THAT A LARGE NUMBER OF AMERICANS BELIEVE, IF YOU LOOK AT THE POLLS, THAT SOMETHING LIKE THAT MAY BE NECESSARY HERE.

I THINK THAT IT MAY NOT BE BUT I ALSO THINK THAT UNLESS WE ENACT SOME PRETTY SIGNIFICANT REFORMS TO BOTH OUR ECONOMIC SYSTEM AS WELL AS OUR POLITICAL SYSTEM THEN I THINK THINGS COULD GET DICEY BECAUSE ONE OF THE THINGS I GOT WRONG IN 2024 IS I REALLY THOUGHT THAT AT THE END OF THE DAY, WHAT VOTERS WOULD CONCLUDE IS THEY WOULD SAY OKAY, THE PRICE OF EGGS IS TOO HIGH BUT, THIS GUY, MEANING TRUMP, HE TRIED TO OVERTURN THE ELECTION, HE TALKED ABOUT TERMINATING THE CONSTITUTION.

I JUST CAN'T GO WITH THAT.

BUT, THEY DIDN'T.

>> THERE'S ALWAYS A CHOICE BETWEEN TWO CANDIDATES, YOU KNOW, A BILATERAL CHOICE, DO THE DEMOCRATS, DO THEY HAVE STRONG ENOUGH CANDIDATES TO COUNTERACT THAT?

>> WELL, YOU COULD ALWAYS HAVE I SUPPOSE BETTER CANDIDATES BUT I DON'T BELIEVE THAT THE LAST PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION BY THE WAY WAS DUE TO THE FAILING ON THE PART OF KAMALA HARRIS BUT YOU HAVE TO REMEMBER, ON THE EVE OF THE ELECTION, 70% OF THE POPULATION WAS TELLING US AMERICA WAS ON THE WRONG TRACK.

NO PARTY IN HISTORY, IN THE INCUMBENT PARTY IN HISTORY HAS EVER WON RE-ELECTION WITH NUMBERS LIKE THAT.

WHAT I DO THINK WE HAVE TO DO AS DEMOCRATS, WE HAVE TO FOCUS LIKE A LASER WHICH WE ARE DOING NOW ON THE COST OF LIVING.

ON MAKING THINGS BETTER FOR AVERAGE PEOPLE AND THEIR FAMILIES.

THOSE ARE THE KINDS OF THINGS THAT MOVE VOTERS, I THINK IT CAN MOVE THEM AGAIN NOW PARTICULARLY WHEN YOU SEE PRESIDENT TRUMP'S NUMBERS.

>> DO YOU EVER SEE IT GOING BACK TO AT LEAST PURPLE, THE STATE OF OHIO?

>> I HAVE HOPE, RECENT POLLING IN OHIO IS SHOWING WE HAVE A REAL SHOT TIME, NOT JUST WITH THE GOVERNOR'S RACE BUT WITH THE U. S. SENATE, WITH SHERROD, AND I THINK THERE IS A REAL SHOT.

I THINK THE REPUBLICANS HAVE OPENED THE DOOR FOR US HERE, NOW I THINK WE HAVE TO WALK THROUGH WITH LASER FOCUS ON AFFORDABILITY ON MAKING THINGS BETTER FOR AVERAGE PEOPLE.

>> PLEASURE HAVING YOU BACK ON.

WE APPRECIATE IT.

MY 20 YEAR JOURNEY WITH JOHN GLENN IS PUBLISHED THROUGH THE UNIVERSITY OF AKRON PRESS.

WE WILL PUT A LINK TO IT ON OUR FACEBOOK PAGE.

AND A REMINDER ALSO, TO CHECK OUT THE WOSU NEWS YOU TUBE PAGE.

THERE YOU CAN SEE AND SHARE EVERY EPISODE OF THIS PROGRAM.

GO TO YOU TUBE AND SEARCH WOSU NEWS.

YOU CAN ALSO WATCH US ON DEMAND AT WOSU.ORG.

AND THE PBS APP FOR DALE BUTLAND, AND OUR PRODUCTION CREW.

I'M MIKE THOMPSON.

HAVE A GOOD WEEK.