>>> DITCHING OHIO'S INCOME TAX --WHAT WOULD IT TAKE, WHAT WOULD IT MEAN?

>>> WELCOME TO "COLUMBUS ON THE RECORD."

I'M MIKE THOMPSON.

ELIMINATING A THIRD OF THE STATE'S TAX REVENUE BASE IS A MAJOR PLATFORM FOR TOP REPUBLICANS RUNNING FOR GOVERNOR --DAVE YOST AND VIVEK RAMASWAMY.

>> WE NEED TO BRING DOWN THE INCOME TAX, EVENTUALLY DOWN TO ZERO, BECAUSE YOU DESERVE TO KEEP WHAT YOU EARN.

IT IS YOUR MONEY, NOT THE GOVERNMENT'S!

>> IT IS TAXPAYER'S MONEY, THAT PAYS FOR ROADS, BRIDGES, SCHOOLS, HEALTHCARE, AND INCENTIVES TO ATTRACT COMPANIES, LIKE INTEL.

BUT, SUPPORTERS SAY OHIO WOULD ATTRACT MORE JOBS IF IT ELIMINATED THE INCOME TAX.

INCOME TAX MAINLY BENEFITS UPPER INCOME RESIDENTS, AND WOULD REQUIRE INCREASES IN OTHER TAXES -- LIKE SALES TAXES -- WHICH HAVE A GREATER IMPACT ON THOSE WITH LOWER INCOMES.

GENE KREBS, LET'S PUT POLITICS ASIDE FOR A MOMENT.

LOGISTICALLY, HOW WOULD THE STATE ACCOMPLISH ELIMINATING THE INCOME TAX?

>> VERY --IT WOULD BE VERY PAINFUL.

IT COULD HAPPEN.

BUT, SOMETHING HAPPENED TWO DAYS AGO THAT I THINK I WOULD ENCOURAGE EVERYBODY TO STILL TAKE A SLOW APPROACH ON THIS, AND THAT WAS AN EMAIL I HAD SENT TO ME, FROM A GROUP OF ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT FINANCIAL FOLKS, WHO SPECIFIED HOW THEIR BUDGETS HAVE BEEN SLICED BY 85%.

AND THESE ARE THE FOLKS -- ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT PROJECTS.

THESE ARE THE FOLKS WHO PUT TOGETHER THE FINANCIAL PACKAGES.

AND WHERE THEY HAVE THE MOST IMPACT, IS GOING TO BE IN THE RURAL AND UNDERSERVED AREAS.

BUT, HERE IS THE REAL THING THAT IS GOING TO HAPPEN.

SO, WHAT THIS DOES AT THE FEDERAL LEVEL, IT DAMPENS DOWN STATE TO STATE COMPETITIVENESS WHEN IT COMES TO GIVING AWAY THE STORE.

NOW, IT MEANS THAT THE RICH STATES CAN REPLICATE THESE FEDERAL PROGRAMS, LIKE CONNECTICUT, MASSACHUSETTS, NEW YORK, OKAY?

AND IT IS GOING TO BE A STRUGGLE FOR US.

AND THEN, AT THE SAME TIME, WE ALL KNOW WHAT IS GOING TO HAPPEN --OR, WE THINK WE KNOW,, KNOWLEDGE, COMMON WISDOM --IS THAT, AT THE FEDERAL LEVEL, THEY ARE GOING TO TAKE ALL OF THE GREAT SOCIETY WELFARE PROGRAMS, PUT THEM IN A BLOCK GRANT, CUT IT BY HALF, AND SEND IT TO THE STATE AND SAY, "YOU TAKE CARE OF THIS, NOW."

>> SO, THERE ISN'T GOING TO BE ENOUGH MONEY TO PAY FOR THIS PROGRAM, IS WHAT YOU ARE SAYING?

THAT IS POLITICALLY UNTENABLE.

>> WELL, WHAT IS THE PLAN TO DO AWAY WITH THE INCOME TAXES?

>> I THINK WE HAVEN'T HEARD A PLAN.

IS IS A HUGE, HUGE CHUNK OF REVENUE TO TAKE AWAY.

MOST OF THE STATE'S MONEY GOES TO INCARCERATION, AND MEDICAID, THE MEDICAID PROGRAM.

I TOLD SOME NUMBERS, THESE ARE FROM 2023, THE STATE SALES TAX WAS ABOUT $13.7 BILLION IN REVENUE, VERSUS $11.3 BILLION IN INCOME TAXES, $3.6 BILLION IN LOCAL SALES TAXES.

SO, THIS IS LIKE CUTTING OFF YOUR LEG.

HOW ARE YOU GOING TO WALK AROUND?

IF THIS ISN'T PAIRED WITH A COHERENT PLAN OF, THIS IS THE SPENDING, THIS IS THE $10 BILLION IN SPENDING WE ARE NOT GOING TO SPEND ANYMORE, IT SOUNDS LIKE AN EMPTY PROMISE, TO ME.

>> JO?

>> MIKE DeWINE DOESN'T WANT THIS, HE CALLED FOR AN INCOME TAX, NOT EVEN IN HIS BUDGET.

>> HE DID NOT.

AND HE CALLED FOR OTHER TAXES.

BUT, HERE'S THE THING.

HERE IS THE INCOME TAX RIGHT NOW, THERE IS TWO BRACKETS IN THE HIGHEST BRACKET IS 3.5, 3.75?

SO, IT IS NOT THAT MUCH IN THE GRAND SCHEME OF THINGS, NOT LIKE WE ARE TALKING 20 YEARS AGO WHERE YOU HAD A SIGNIFICANT INCOME TAX.

AND WHEN YOU LOOK AT WHAT WE DON'T TAX IN OHIO, SOME OF THE INCOME FREE STATE'S TAX, LIKE FOR EXAMPLE, A CAR.

WHEN YOU GO TO REGISTER A CAR IN SOME STATE'S, IT IS THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS TO REGISTER A CAR BECAUSE YOU ARE PAYING A FEE ON THAT.

WELL, THAT CAN OFFSET THAT INCOME TAX VERY QUICKLY.

THERE ARE OTHER FEES THAT ARE IN OTHER STATE'S --GAS AND OIL, DIFFERENT THINGS THAT HAPPEN.

SO, IT'S --YOU KNOW, TAKING CARE OF THAT INCOME TAX AND GETTING NO INCOME TAX MIGHT MAKE SOME PEOPLE HAPPY, BUT WHAT YOU HAVE TO DO TO GET THERE?

>> WOULD IT NOT ATTRACT SOME PEOPLE TO OHIO?

OR, PREVENT SOME PEOPLE FROM LEAVING OHIO, PERHAPS AT RETIREMENT AGE, TO GO TO A PLACE LIKE FLORIDA, TEXAS, WITH NO INCOME TAX?

UNLESS THEY CAN MAKE WINTERS WARMER AND SUMMER, THEY MIGHT DO THAT.

BUT, WHEN VIVEK RAMASWAMY FIRST MENTIONED THIS IN CINCINNATI A WHILE AGO, HE DIDN'T HAVE THE CAREFUL CONDITIONS.

HE SAID, "LET'S GET RID OF IT."

AND HE ALSO TALKED ABOUT THE PROPERTY TAX AND HE TALKED ABOUT HOW WONDERFUL HOMESCHOOLING WAS.

SO, SOME PEOPLE THOUGHT, "OH, HERE IS HOW HE'S GOING TO DO IT.

WE WILL ENCOURAGE PEOPLE TO DO HOMESCHOOLING, THEN WE WON'T NEED TEACHERS, WE WON'T NEED BUILDINGS, AND THEREFORE, IN FACT, YOU CAN MAKE IT WORK."

DAVE YOST, I THINK IS THE MORE RESPONSIBLE FROM THE BEGINNING SAYING, YOU HAVE TO DO IT GRADUALLY, YOU HAVE TO RECOGNIZE THERE ARE TRADE-OFFS, YOU CAN'T JUST SAY YOU'RE GOING TO DO THIS.

AND RAMASWAMY, I THINK HE DID NOT HELP HIS CREDIBILITY, BY THE WAY HE HAD FIRST APPROACHED IT.

AND NOW, HE HAS BACKED OFF.

IN THE CLIP YOU SHOWED, HE SAID "EVENTUALLY."

>> I'M ALL FOR ELIMINATING INCOME TAX, BUT IT IS NOT BEING INTIMIDATED.

AND THE OTHER THING I HAVE TO SAY, IN 1997 --LET'S GO BACK IN TIME --GEORGE VICTOR BORN PROPOSED A SALES TAX INCREASE.

I WAS ONE OF THE LEADERS AGAINST IT, BECAUSE MY FARM IS 3.8 MILES FROM THE INDIANA LINE --SO, LET'S TAKE ALL THIS, LET'S SAY THE SALES TAX GOES THE SAME WAY AS FLORIDA.

THE SALES TAX I THINK IS 10% OR 11%.

THERE WOULD BE NO STORES IN TRUMBULL COUNTY.

LET ME TELL YOU.

BECAUSE YOU WOULD CONDUCT EVERYTHING OVER IN INDIANA.

>> WOULDN'T YOU ALSO HAVE TO FORCE CITIES TO ELIMINATE THEIR INCOME TAX?

BECAUSE, I MEAN, THE COLUMBUS INCOME TAXES NEARLY AS HIGH AS THE MIDDLE LEVEL OF OHIO INCOME TAX, STATE INCOME TAX.

>> THE WAY I LOOK ABOUT THIS, YOU LOOK AT ALL OF THE POLITICAL FIGHTS OF TODAY, YOU WANT TO BUILD THE BROWNS A NEW STADIUM, EVERYBODY WANTS PROPERTY TAXES IN COLUMBUS TO BE LOWER, EVERYBODY IS GETTING SQUEEZED BY THAT.

THE MORE REVENUE, THAT IS CUT, THE HEART OF THOSE DECISIONS WILL BE TO MAKE, THERE WILL BE MORE SCARCITY, SOME PEOPLE WILL BE LEFT WITHOUT.

SO, I COME BACK TO THIS POINT, UNTIL SOMEONE EXPLAINS WHAT WE WANT TO SPEND MONEY ON, I DON'T KNOW HOW YOU CAN JUST SLASH THIS REVENUE.

>> HERE IS A QUESTION --WILL WE EVER SEE A TAX INCREASE AGAIN?

GENE?

>> WOW.

YOU MIGHT HEAR CHATTER ABOUT THAT, IF WE HAVE A DEPRESSION, LIKE THE 1930s, AND WE HAVE TO TOTALLY RESTRUCTURE.

BUT, TO BUILD UPON WHAT JAKE BROUGHT UP, 1930s, WE HAVE THE TAX STRUCTURE FROM THE 1930s, BECAUSE BACK THEN, YOU CONDUCTED ALL OF YOUR ECONOMIC ACTIVITY WITHIN FIVE MILES OF WHERE YOU LIVE.

YOU DON'T DO THAT, NOW.

AND NOW, BECAUSE OF THAT, THE STATE BASICALLY HAS THIS BIG INCOME REDISTRIBUTION METHODOLOGY.

>> AND IF YOU NEEDED MORE MONEY, THE STATE WOULD BE MORE LIKELY TO SAY, RATHER THAN RAISING THE RATES, "LET'S EXPAND THE BASE UPON WHICH WE COLLECT THE SALES TAX, AND LET'S ELIMINATE SOME OF THE INCOME TAX EXEMPTIONS."

>> FOR A FEE.

THERE WOULD BE A LOT OF FEES.

>> DON'T RAISE TAXES, BUT DON'T RAISE TUITION OR FEES, RAISED TO HELP OHIO ADJUST TO A SHARP INCREASE IN DEMAND FOR ELECTRICITY.

NEW DATA CENTERS AND ADVANCED MANUFACTURING FACTORIES REQUIRE A LOT MORE POWER.

THE BILL WOULD MAKE IT EASIER TO BUILD NEW POWER PLANTS.

IT INCLUDES PROVISIONS THAT MAKE IT TOUGHER FOR UTILITIES TO INCREASE ELECRTIC RATES AND TACK ON FEES TO CUSTOMERS' BILLS.

IT ELIMINATES THOSE SUBSIDIES FOR THOSE TWO OLD COAL PLANTS THAT WERE IN THE SCANDALOUS NUCLEAR BAIL OUT LAW.

AND, IT ENDS DIRECT SUBSIDIES TO SOME SOLAR ENERGY PROJECTS.

JAKE ZUCKERMAN, THIS PASSED THE SENATE UNANIMOUSLY, WHICH MEANS IT GOT BIPARTISAN SUPPORT.

WHAT IS THE MAGIC OF THIS BILL, THAT ONE DEMOCRAT SUPPORTS?

>> I FEEL BETTER ABOUT PARTISAN SUPPORT.

WITH THE EXCEPTION OF UTILITIES, ALL OF THE MAJOR POLITICAL PLAYERS WERE THE MANUFACTURERS BEHIND THIS, THE CONSUMER'S COUNSEL WHO ADVOCATES FOR LOWER BILLS, RESIDENTIAL CUSTOMERS WERE BEHIND THIS.

THIS COALITION THAT YOU NEVER SEE ON THE SAME PAGE, WERE ON THE SAME PAGE.

NOW, ONE THING TO CONSIDER, THIS IS LONG-TERM ECONOMIC THINKING, BUT THE IDEA OF THIS BILL IS, WE ARE GOING TO RESET SOME OF THE MARKET CONDITIONS AND LIKE THE SPONSORS SAY, WE WILL LEVEL THE PLAYING FIELD A BIT AND THERE IS A PRETTY SUBSTANTIAL PROPERTY TAX CUT FOR A NEW GENERATION IN THE FIELD.

SO, THEY ARE HOPING THAT BY REJIGGERING THE AIR WE BREATHE, THE BASELEVEL MARKET CONDITIONS, THAT THEY WILL SPUR --THEY TALK ABOUT AN ALL OF THE ABOVE STRATEGY, BUT REALISTICALLY, WE ARE TALKING ABOUT PRIVATE NATURAL GAS GENERATION FOR THESE DATA CENTERS, AND THE END OF THOSE COAL, LIKE YOU MENTIONED.

>> I AM CHAIR OF THE OHIO PERFORMANCE COUNSEL, SO I'M PROBABLY THE THIRD MOST HATED PERSON BY UTILITIES IN THE STATE, AND I WILL TELL YOU, WHEN I SAW THE EARLY DRAFTS OF THIS, I JUST WENT, "THIS WILL NEVER PASS.

THE UTILITIES WILL DO EVERYTHING IN THEIR POWER TO KILL IT."

IT PASSED.

I STILL FEEL LIKE I AM LIVING IN BIZARRO WORLD, BECAUSE WE GOT EVERYTHING THAT WE WANTED.

>> WHAT WAS THE BEST THING YOU GOT?

>> ELIMINATION OF THE ESPS, ELECTRIC STANDARDIZATION -- >> ELECTRIC SECURITY PLANS.

>> SECURITY PLANS, YES.

>> THAT INCREASES YOUR BILLS?

WHAT DOES IT DO?

>> IT GIVES THE CEO BASICALLY CARTE BLANCHE TO DO A WHOLE BUNCH OF SILLY RIDERS ON EVERYTHING.

BASICALLY, YOU TALK ABOUT HOW CONSERVATIVES ARE SUPPOSED TO BE ANTITAX, THEY HAVE BEEN TAXING THE BUT JESUS OUT OF PEOPLE, VIA ELECTRIC BILLS, OVER THE LAST 20 YEARS, AND NOBODY --EXCEPT FOR ME AND FIVE OTHER PEOPLE --HAVE GIVEN A HOOT.

>> SO, THIS CAN PASS AND SATISFY THE CONSUMER GROUPS BECAUSE OF HOUSE BILL SIX?

>> WELL, PARTLY THAT, BUT ALSO THE RECOGNITION FOR THE NEED FOR ADDITIONAL ELECTRICITY IS UPON US, NOW.

NOBODY WANTS TO BE IN THE POSITION OF HAVING BLACKOUTS.

REMEMBER, OUR GRID IS NOT THAT GREAT, IT IS PART OF THE NORTHEASTERN GRID.

CANADA IS SORT OF THREATENING US A LITTLE BIT.

SO, YOU KNOW, YOU DON'T REALLY WANT TO HAVE THESE BROWNOUTS, BLACKOUTS, WHATEVER.

SO, WITH THESE INCREASES IN DEMAND, THEY NEED TO DO SOMETHING, AND THIS ONE IS MORE PLAUSIBLE, AND ESSENTIALLY LESS PAINFUL, OR WHATEVER.

AND NOTICE THAT WE STILL DON'T REALLY BELIEVE IN RENEWABLES IN OHIO.

>> SO, QUESTION FOR JO.

IT MAKES IT EASIER TO SET UP POWER PLANTS, IT HELPS CONSUMERS A LITTLE BIT BY MAKING IT TOUGHER TO RAISE RATES AND ADDITIONAL FEEDS, BUT IT CUTS OUT SUBSIDIES TO SOLAR?

>> YEAH.

YEAH, AND THAT'S A BIG DEAL.

THAT'S A BIG DEAL FOR A LOT OF PEOPLE, A LOT OF FARMERS HATE THE SOLAR PLANTS, BECAUSE THEY TAKE, YOU KNOW, THEIR FARMLAND AND THAT SORT OF THING.

>> WELL, THEY HAVE THE SOLAR FARMS.

>> RIGHT, EXACTLY.

BUT, ONE THING I WANT TO MENTION IS THIS BILL DOESN'T DO A VERY CRITICAL THING, AND THAT IS ADDRESS THE PROBLEMS OF THE PUCO, THAT ALLOWED HOUSE BILL SIX TO MOVE FORWARD AND PERPETUATE, LIKE IT DID.

BECAUSE THERE ARE NOT STRUCTURAL CHANGES TO THE WAY THE OVERSIGHT IS HANDLED, IN SITUATIONS INVOLVING ENERGY.

AND IF THERE IS ANOTHER SCANDAL MEAN, WHERE ARE THE SAFEGUARDS THERE TO TRY TO CATCH THAT?

THAT HASN'T BEEN ADDRESSED.

>> THE PUCO REFORM IS A LONG GOING THIN, THAT IS ONE OF THE THINGS WE NEED TO LOOK AT.

>> SO, I MEAN, I REMEMBER PAST DEREGULATION BILLS, DIDN'T QUITE WORK OUT THAT WAY, JAKE.

IS THERE ANY CONCERN THAT THIS IS NOT ALL IT SEEMS CRACKED UP TO BE?

>> YEAH, WELL, FOR ONE, ON THE RENEWABLES POINT, THERE IS STILL AN UNBELIEVABLE AMOUNT OF POWER AT THE LOCAL LEVEL TO KILL RENEWABLE PROJECT THAT IS UNIQUE TO RENEWABLE AND ESPECIALLY IN THE SOLAR INDUSTRY.

IT IS JUST CHOKING THE SOLAR INDUSTRY OUT.

WE HAVE SEEN DEVELOPERS PLUNGE SINCE THE 2021 LEGISLATION TOOK EFFECT.

AS FAR AS REGULATION GOES, I STILL THINK YOU HEAR A LOT OF POLITICAL SUPPORT FOR THAT.

THERE ARE MORE VOICES, FROM CINCINNATI, COMING OUT SAYING THAT WE SHOULD REGULATE, REGULATION BEING GIVEN THE UTILITIES OWNERSHIP AND CONTROL OVER THESE GENERATION ASSETS.

BUT, I STILL THINK THERE IS A WIDE STANDING BELIEF THAT THIS HAS BEEN GOOD FOR CUSTOMERS.

IF YOU GIVE CUSTOMERS A CHANCE TO SHOP AROUND FOR WHERE THEY BUY THEIR ELECTRICITY FROM, RATHER THAN JUST WHATEVER THE UTILITY WANTS TO GIVE YOU, THEY WILL SAVE MONEY, YOU WILL REALIZE SAVINGS.

>> SO, FOR SOLAR, IS IT A TECHNOLOGICAL THING?

BY 2030, IF TRENDS CONTINUE -- AND THEY HAVE BEEN GOING THIS WAY NOW FOR 40 YEARS --SOLAR ENERGY WILL COST ONE PENNY PER KILOWATT IN 2030.

AND WHEN I TALK TO MY FRIENDS ABOUT, WHO UNDERSTAND THIS STUFF, WHO GO, WHAT HAPPENS WHEN BASICALLY SOLAR BECOMES FREE, ELECTRICITY?

WHAT DOES THAT DO?

THEY ALL LOOK AT ME AND GO, "OH, HOW IS THAT RIBEYE SANDWICH?"

NOBODY CAN GET THEIR MENTAL ARMS AROUND THAT.

IT IS JUST TOO --IT BECOMES FREE.

WHAT DO YOU DO WITH THAT, THEN?

>> WHEN JIMMY CARTER DIED, ONE OF THE THINGS THEY DESCRIBE IS HOW HE HAD SOLAR PANELS ON THE WHITE HOUSE.

THIS WAS '76 TO '80 AND THEN WHEN REAGAN CAME IN, THEY TOOK YOU START THINKING, IF WE HAD BEEN MORE SERIOUS ABOUT SOLAR 40 YEARS AGO, IMAGINE THE SOLAR THE MANUFACTURING INDUSTRY WOULD HAVE, AND IMAGINE HOW IT MIGHT BE FIVE, SIX, SEVEN, 8% OF OUR ELECTRICITY GENERATION.

>>> ON TO OUR NEXT TOPIC.

IT LOOKS LIKE THE CONTROVERSIAL HIGHER EDUCATION BILL AIMED AT LIBERAL PRACTICES ON COLLEGE CAMPUSES WILL BECOME LAW.

THE HOUSE HAS JOINED THE SENATE IN PASSING THE BILL, WHICH BANS DEI PROGRAMS AT PUBLIC UNIVESITIES.

IT ALSO BANS FACULTY STRIKES, AND CALLS FOR PERFORMANCE REVIEWS FOR TENURED FACULTY.

IT REQUIRES A CIVICS COURSE, FOCUSED ON AMERICAN HISTORY AND FREE MARKET CAPITALISM.

AND, IT WOULD PROHIBIT UNIVERSITIES FROM TAKING POSITIONS ON UNSPECIFIED CONTROVERSIAL TOPICS.

AND NOW, THE SENATE NOW MUST AGREE TO SOME MINOR CHANGES BEFORE IT GOES TO THE GOVERNOR, BUT THE GOVERNOR SAYS HE WOULD LIKELY SIGN IT.

NOW, YOU ARE A PROFESSOR, PROFESSORS ARE KNOWN TO BE ORNERY AT TIMES, GO LOW, NOT GO WITH THE RULES.

IS THIS GOING TO AFFECT HOW THEY TEACH?

>> WELL, YOU DID NOT MENTION A PROVISION THAT DIRECTLY AFFECTS FACULTY MEMBERS IN THE CLASSROOM.

SO, THERE IS ACTUALLY A FIRM THAT FACULTY STAFF SHALL ALLOW, AND ENCOURAGE STUDENTS TO REACH THEIR OWN CONCLUSIONS ABOUT ALL CONTROVERSIAL BELIEFS, OR POLICIES, AND SHALL NOT THINK TO INDOCTRINATE SOCIAL, POLITICAL, OR RELIGIOUS POINT OF VIEW.

SO, MANY YEARS AGO, I AM TEACHING A COURSE ON VOTING BEHAVIOR.

AND I AM TALKING ABOUT THE VOTING BEHAVIOR OF DIFFERENT GROUPS --RURAL, URBAN, SUBURBAN, BLACK, WHITE, PROTESTANT, JEWISH.

A STUDENT RAISES HIS HAND AND SAYS, "WHY ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT CATHOLICS?"

AND I AM A LITTLE STARTLED.

I SAID, "BECAUSE THEY ARE A VOTING GROUP."

WELL, THERE'S NOT VERY MANY CATHOLICS IN THE COUNTRY.

I LOOK AT HIM AND I SAY "NO, THERE ARE."

AND THEN HE IS APPALLED, AND I 20%, 25%, NEW JERSEY, 40%."

HE IS DOES NOT BELIEVE IN, AND I SAID TO THE CLASS, "ANYBODY WHO IS CATHOLIC, IF YOU WOULD LIKE TO RAISE YOUR HAND, PLEASE DO SO."

THE KID LOOKED AROUND, AND HE SAW THE NUMBERS, AND HE MADE A TOTALLY INAPPROPRIATE COMMENT, AND I REALIZED HE WAS --IT WAS A BIGOT AGAINST CATHOLICS.

AND I AM THINKING, "HOW DO I HANDLE THIS?"

AND I FINALLY SAID, OKAY, I'M GOING TO SAY SOMETHING TO HIM.

THIS LEGISLATION MIGHT SAY -- I'M NOT SUPPOSED TO TELL HIM HE'S WRONG, I'M NOT SUPPOSED TO ARGUE ABOUT IT.

YOU KNOW?

>> IMAGINE THAT YOU WOULD, YOU KNOW, IS THAT GOING TO HAPPEN, DO YOU THINK?

>> WELL, WERE YOU TEACHING CLASS IN 1883?

JUST --WHOA!

I MEAN, I DON'T KNOW IF THAT IS GOING TO HAPPEN.

IF IT DOES START TO HAPPEN, THAT IS THE HARD REVISED CODE, NOT THE SET IN STONE CODE, THEY CAN MODERATE THAT.

I THINK WHAT WE ARE DEALING WITH HERE IS THIS OLD BATTLE, THIS GOES BACK TO THE FIRST TIME I TOLD THIS TO A MOTHER IN MIAMI IN '93.

I ASKED THE QUESTION, "WHO ENDS HIGHER ED IN OHIO?"

THE MIAMI ADMINISTRATOR SAID THEY DID, IN '93.

AND I THINK WHAT THIS IS, THIS IS AN ATTEMPT BY THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY TO CRAWL BACK OVER WHAT THEY THINK IS AN OWNERSHIP OF HIGHER ED, TOO, WHO I CALLED BOB AND BETTY BUCKEYE, THE ORDINARY CITIZEN OF OHIO.

I THINK --THIS IS GOING TO SOUND WEIRD --BUT, I THINK THAT WITH THIS BILL PASSED, WHAT I FIRST THOUGHT WAS, THEY ARE GOING TO MAKE IT EASIER TO RAISE MONEY FOR HIGHER ED, PUT MORE MONEY FOR HIGHER ED IN THE BUDGET, BECAUSE THERE WILL BE MORE OWNERSHIP OF HIGHER ED NOW, BY EVERYBODY.

>> SO, JAKE, IS THIS --THIS COMES BACK OUT OF, YOU KNOW, PERCEPTION --REAL, OR NOT -- THAT LIBERALS ARE ON COLLEGE CAMPUSES, MANY PROFESSIONALS ARE LIBERAL AND CONSERVATIVES DON'T HAVE A VOICE.

WILL THIS GIVE CONSERVATIVES MORE OF A VOICE IN THOSE CLASSROOMS?

>> IT'S HARD TO SAY, ANYTHING ABOUT THAT PERCEPTION.

WHAT IS A COLLEGE.

IS IT LIBERAL?

IS IT THE BUILDINGS THAT ARE LIBERAL?

IS IT THE PROFESSORS THAT ARE LIBERAL?

THAT IS WHEN I WOULD REALLY CHALLENGE.

IT IS THE STUDENTS.

AND THIS BILL IS AN ATTEMPT -- YOU CAN'T PASS A LAW THAT TELLS STUDENTS HOW THEY CAN AND CAN'T ACT, SO YOU END UP WITH THESE SORT OF VAGUE POLICIES THAT THE UNIVERSITY MUST APPLY, AND THEY CAN'T INDOCTRINATE.

THERE IS A LOT OF VAGUENESS IN THE LANGUAGE.

I THINK THE MOST LIKELY OUTCOME IS A LOT OF SELF-CENSORSHIP.

PROFESSORS, ADMINISTRATORS HAVE TO BE REALLY CAREFUL ABOUT WHAT THEY SAY AND THERE IS A CLEAR READING THROUGH THIS BILL.

DEI --BAD.

CONTROVERSIAL --BAD.

>> BUT, IF YOU ARE TALKING PUBLIC HEALTH, AND YOU ARE TALKING VACCINES, YOU KNOW, DISEASE SPREAD, ALL OF THAT, DO YOU FEEL LIKE YOU NEED TO SELF CENSOR YOURSELF, BECAUSE THERE MIGHT BE SOME PEOPLE IN THE CLASS -- >> WELL, WHAT IS THE FORCE HOW DO WE ENFORCE THIS, DO WE KNOW?

>> WELL, THAT IS GOING TO BE A HARD THING TO ENFORCE.

IT IS GOING TO BE, A LOT OF PRESSERS ARE GOING TO SAY, "I DON'T EVEN WANT TO GO THERE, BECAUSE THAT COULD BE CONTROVERSIAL."

THAT IS A SCARY THING COME IN OF ITSELF.

AND THE STUDENTS COME TO CLASS IN A COLLEGE AND THEY ARE AROUND OTHER PEOPLE, FROM DIFFERENT BACKGROUNDS, DIFFERENT RACES, DIFFERENT RELIGIONS --EVERYTHING IS DIFFERENT.

RIGHT?

SO, THEY DON'T REALLY AUTOMATICALLY KNOW A LOT OF THINGS, ABOUT A LOT OF DIFFERENT PEOPLE.

AND THEY WANT TO LEARN.

MOST STUDENTS WANT TO LEARN, AND THEY LEARN IT FROM OTHER STUDENTS, MOST OF IT FROM OTHER STUDENTS.

SO, IF YOU DON'T HAVE THE ABILITY FOR SOMEONE TO TALK ABOUT THAT, FACTUALLY, IN A CLASSROOM, WHEN SOMETHING IS MISSTATED, THEN THERE IS A PROBLEM.

>> GENE, HAD CONSERVATIVES SORT OF BEEN PUSHED ASIDE ON COLLEGE CAMPUSES, IN YOUR POINT OF VIEW?

NOT OUTRAGEOUS VIEWPOINTS, LIKE HERB POINTED OUT, BUT OTHER VIEWPOINTS LIKE, YOU KNOW, THEY ARE IN THE MINORITY?

>> WELL, FROM PERSONAL EXPERIENCE, OHIO STATE HAS ALWAYS BEEN VERY KIND AND GRACIOUS TO ME SINCE I LEFT THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY, 25 YEARS AGO.

THEY HAVE HAD ME BACK ON THE CAMPUS FOUR OR FIVE TIMES A YEAR TO GO "BLAH, BLAH, BLAH" IN FRONT OF THE STUDENTS.

SO, OHIO STATE WAS COUPLED WITH A CONSERVATIVE VOICE COMING ONTO CAMPUS.

MIAMI UNIVERSITY, AFTER JIM GARLAND LEFT, HAS NOT HAD ME COME BACK, ONCE.

I WAS NINE MILES AWAY.

I AM VIEWED AS BEING THE DUMB FARMER FROM MORGAN SON, AND THEY WILL NOT ALLOW MY VOICE TO BE HEARD.

>> REALLY QUICK, THEN WE WILL GO ON TO THE NEXT ONE.

>> 13 YEARS AGO, THEY ARE ESTABLISHED THE OFFICE OF MINORITY AFFAIRS ON CAMPUS, THEY SAID TO GIVE THE WRONG SIGNAL AS TO WHAT WE ARE TRYING TO DO BECAUSE WE ARE TRYING TO APPEAL NOT JUST TO BLACK STUDENTS, BUT TO DISABLED VETERANS, ALL OF THE GROUPS.

AND HE ALSO SAID, AT SOME POINT, PEOPLE ARE GOING TO SAY, "MINORITY AFFAIRS, IT WILL BE REVERSE DISCRIMINATION."

SO, HE SAID, WE ARE CHANGING THAT, WE WILL STILL BE ACTIVE IN RECRUITING THESE GROUPS, BUT WE WILL CREATE AN OFFICE OF DIVERSITY AND INCLUSION.

AND WHO KNEW THAT DIVERSITY AND INCLUSION COULD BE BAD WORDS IN THE UNITED STATE'S OF AMERICA?

>> WORDS, DEFINITIONS CHANGE, CONSTANTLY.

>>> OUR LAST TOPIC.

WHEN THE STATE FIRST STARTED PAYING FOR VOUCHERS TO ATTEND PRIVATE SCHOOLS, THEY WENT TO LOW INCOME FAMILIES WHO HAD TO SEND THEIR KIDS TO FAILING PUBLIC SCHOOLS.

OVER THE YEARS, IT EXPANDED UNTIL A COUPLE YEARS AGO, WHEN LAWMAKERS MADE THE PROGRAM LARGELY UNIVERSAL.

ALL FAMILIES ARE ELIGIBLE, REGARDLESS OF INCOME, WITH RICHER FAMILIES GETTING SMALLER SUBSIDIES.

A NEW REPORT SHOWS ALL INCOMES ARE BENEFITING.

THE REPORT TO LAWMAKERS SHOWS 90% OF THE PEOPLE GETTING PRIVATE SCHOOL VOUCHERS ARE NOT LOW INCOME.

THE REPORT SHOWS THAT 17% OF THE VOUCHER RECIPIENTS, THOSE VOUCHERS ARE GOING TO UPPER INCOME FAMILIES.

SUPPORTERS OF THIS ESSAY, THIS IS WHAT WE WANT, WE WANT EVERYONE TO HAVE CHOICE, THIS IS WHAT THE STATE LEGISLATIVE SERVICE COMMISSION PREDICTED WOULD HAPPEN, WHEN YOU GIVE OUT FREE MONEY, PEOPLE ARE GOING TO TAKE IT.

MANY WHO ARE TAKING ADVANTAGE OF THIS THAT, HEY, WE ARE SUPPORTING THE LOCAL SCHOOLS WITH OUR TAXES.

SO, THEREFORE, THIS IS OKAY, FOR US TO GET A LITTLE BIT BACK OUT OF THAT, TO MAKE THE CHOICE TO SEND THEIR KIDS TO PUBLIC SCHOOL.

BUT, THERE IS A COUPLE OF THINGS TO REMEMBER, HERE.

NOT ALL COUNTIES IN OHIO ARE CREATED EQUAL, AND MANY COUNTIES DO NOT HAVE A PRIVATE SCHOOL.

SO, YOU KNOW, CHILDREN IN THOSE COUNTIES CANNOT TAKE ADVANTAGE OF IT.

AND, BASICALLY, THERE IS NOTHING DONE WITH THE PRIVATE SCHOOLS, TO MAKE SURE THAT THEY DON'T JACK UP TUITION, TO JUST TAKE ADVANTAGE, YOU KNOW, KEEP IT THE SAME, BASICALLY, FOR THE SAME FAMILY, BUT THEY GET MORE TUITION OUT OF IT.

>> JAKE, ANY REGRET ON THE PART OF LAWMAKERS WHO APPROVED THIS?

THE BILL WILL GET HIGH AND EVEN GET HIGHER.

>> JUST TO DRILL DOWN IN THAT DATA A LITTLE BIT MORE, 64% OF FAMILIES WHO ARE RECEIVING THESE SUBSIDIES ARE EARNING MORE THAN 450% OF THE FEDERAL POVERTY LINE, THAT IS $140,000 FAMILIES CLAIMING THIS MONEY.

JUST THE OTHER DAY DURING BUDGET TALKS IN THE STATE OF OHIO, THERE WAS A HOT $150 MILLION PROGRAM CREATED FOR STUDENT LUNCHES, THE HOUSE SPEAKER, MATT HUFFMAN, SHUT THE IDEA DOWN AND SAID IT IS WASTEFUL, SO I THINK WE ARE GETTING CLEAR STATEMENT OF VALUES, HERE.

>> PUBLIC SCHOOLS HAVE LOBBIED AGAINST THIS, BUT SHOULD THEY JUST COMPETE, HEAD-TO-HEAD, WITH PRIVATE SCHOOLS?

WE HAVE BETTER RESOURCES, WE PAY OUR TEACHERS BETTER, WE HAVE BETTER ACCOUNTABILITY, WHY NOT GO HEAD TO HEAD?

>> IT IS NOT THAT SIMPLE, BECAUSE I THINK PUBLIC SCHOOLS SEE A NUMBER OF THREATS OUT THERE, WITH RESPECT TO THEIR FUNDING.

AND YOU ALLUDED EARLIER, I WOULD BE PARTICULARLY CONCERNED ABOUT PUBLIC SCHOOLS IN RURAL COUNTIES.

IN FACT, IT IS VERY POSSIBLE THAT IN THIS BUDGET --AND WE DIDN'T TALK ABOUT MEDICAID -- THERE COULD BE A WHOLE SLEW OF DECISIONS THAT WILL HAVE A DISPROPORTIONATE EFFECT ON RURAL AREAS.

SO, I THINK THERE IS NOT UNANIMITY ON PUBLIC SCHOOLS, IN RURAL AREAS SHOULD BE VERY, VERY SOON CONCERNED.

>> GENE, YOU DO NOT HAVE A PRIVATE SCHOOL IN YOUR COUNTY?

>> I DO NOT HAVE A PRIVATE SCHOOL IN MY COUNTY.

IF I WAS THE STATE REP GOING HOME AT THIS TIME TRYING TO ARGUE ON BEHALF OF THIS, IT WOULD BE A LITTLE BIT DIFFICULT.

>> YOU CAN'T USE YOUR VOUCHERS IN INDIANA.

>> I COULD TRY, BUT AS SOON AS I CROSSED THE STATE LINE, I TURN INTO A PUMPKIN, SO WHAT CAN I SAY?

>> BISCUITS TO OUR FINAL OFF THE RECORD FINAL SHOTS, GENE KREBS, YOU ARE FIRST.

>> EXPECT A MAJOR HURRICANE TO HIT THE BUDGET IN JULY.

>> NO OTHER?

>> NO OTHER.

>> HEISENBERG UNCERTAINTY PRINCIPLE, IF I TELL YOU WHAT IT IS, IT WON'T HAPPEN.

>> MARCH MADNESS, BUT I DON'T KNOW IF WE ARE TALKING ABOUT WHAT IS GOING ON IN WASHINGTON, OR THE BASKETBALL TOURNAMENT.

>> JAKE?

>> A LITTLE BLEAK NEWS OUT THERE, THE SUN IS SHINING, THE BIKE RACK IS BACK ON THE CAR, THE HALF MARATHON IS COMING UP, HAPPY SPRING.

>> IT IS NICE TO HEAR THE BIRDS CHIRPING AND DAFFODILS JO?

>> I JUST CAME FROM DENVER, AND WE WERE TALKING ABOUT ALL THE THINGS THAT HAPPENED IN THE REALM OF MARIJUANA IN DENVER, VERSUS LEGAL MARIJUANA IN OHIO.

AND THERE IS A LOT OF MONEY WITH THE STATE, THAT ENTITIES COULD BE MAKING ON MARIJUANA, IF WE PAY ATTENTION TO SOME OF THE THINGS DONE IN OTHER STATE'S.

>> WELL, WHEN IT COMES TO THE INCOME TAX ELIMINATION, THOSE FRACKING DRILLERS WILL HIRE.

>> WELL, CUTTING TAXES FOR THOSE COMPANIES --ANYWAY, MY FINAL THOUGHT, REALLY, IS LOTS OF ACTION IN FEDERAL COURT, THESE DAYS.

THIS WEEK FEATURED HEARINGS ON WHETHER THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION DEFIED A JUDGE'S ORDER TO NOT DEPORT SOME IMMIGRANTS TO EL SALVADOR.

TRUMP AND HIS ALLIES DENOUNCED THE JUDGE AS A "LEFT WING LUNATIC" AND CALLED FOR HIS IMPEACHMENT.

CHIEF JUSTICE JOHN ROBERTS SAID THAT WAS INNAPPROPRIATE.

WELL, HE SHOULD GO ONE STEP FURTHER, TO SHOW US THAT JUDGES ARE FAIR AND REASONABLE.

ROBERTS --AND HE CAN DO THIS -- SHOULD ALLOW US ALL TO SEE HOW THEY OPERATE BY LIFTING THE BAN INCLUDING THE SUPREME COURT.

THAT'S "COLUMBUS ON THE RECORD" FOR THIS WEEK.

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FOR OUR CREW AND OUR PANEL, I'M MIKE THOMPSON.

HAVE A GOOD WEEK.