>> ANOTHER DRAGIC POLICE ALTERCATION.

ANOTHER TRAGIC POLICE ALTERATION.

JOINING US ON -- >>> ANOTHER TRAGIC POLICE ALTERCATION.

JOINING US ON "COLUMBUS ON THE RECORD," MICHAEL MILLER, FORMER FRANKLIN COUNTY PROSECUTOR AND SAM GRESHAM OF COMMON CAUSE, OHIO.

A WHITE COLUMBUS POLICE OFFICER HAS SHOT AND KILLED A BLACK PERSON, PROMPTING PROTESTS AND OUTRAGE.

BUT THIS CASE IS DIFFERENT.

HERE'S WHAT WE KNOW.

SOMEONE ON TUESDAY CALLED POLICE TO A SOUTHEAST SIDE HOME SAYING THEY WERE BEING STABBED AND ATTACKED.

POLICE RESPONDED.

THERE WAS A FIGHT.

A GIRL HAD A KNIFE.

THAT GIRL, 16-YEAR-OLD MAKHIA BRYANT, WAS SHOT BY OFFICER NICHOLAS REARDON.

THE OFFICER'S BODY CAMERA CAPTURED THE MOMENTS BEFORE AND AFTER THE SHOOTING.

HERE YOU SEE THE OFFICER LEAVE HIS CRUISER, BRYANT IN A DARK TOP AND PANTS CONFRONTS A WOMAN OR GIRL ON THE SIDEWALK.

THE OFFICER REPEATEDLY YELLS TO GET DOWN.

MAKHIA BRYANT THEN CHARGES AT ANOTHER WOMAN OR GIRL DRESSED IN A PINK SWEAT SUIT.

BRYANT IS HOLDING A KNIFE AND RAISES IT TOWARD THE WOMAN, AND THAT'S WHEN OFFICER REARDON FIRES FOUR SHOTS AND BRYANT FALLS TO THE GROUND.

>> A TEENAGE GIRL IS DEAD.

AND SHE'S DEAD AT THE HANDS OF A POLICE OFFICER.

UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES, THAT IS A HORRENDOUS TRAGEDY.

VIDEO SHOWS THERE'S MORE TO THIS.

IT REQUIRES TO US PAUSE AND TAKE A CLOSE LOOK AT THE SEQUENCE OF EVENTS, AND THOUGH IT'S NOT EASY, WAIT FOR THE FACTS AS DETERMINED BY AN INDEPENDENT INVESTIGATION.

>> THE SHOOTING HAPPENED ALMOST SIMULTANEOUSLY WITH THE DEREK CHAUVIN GUILTY VERDICTS IN MINNESOTA AND SPARKED PROTESTS IN THE NEIGHBORHOOD WHERE IT HAPPENED AND ALSO IN DOWNTOWN COLUMBUS.

SAM GRESHAM, WHAT DO YOU SEE WHEN YOU SEE THAT VIDEO?

>> I SEE A LOT OF ANGUISH THAT GOES THROUGH MY COMMUNITY.

I'VE BEEN ON THE TELEPHONE NONSTOP ABOUT TALKING TO PEOPLE ABOUT THIS.

SOME PEOPLE SAY IT'S A GOOD SHOOT.

SOME PEOPLE SAY IT'S NOT A GOOD SHOOT.

THERE ARE A PARTICULAR SET OF CIRCUMSTANCES THAT CREATE CONFLICT EVEN IN THE BLACK COMMUNITY.

I THINK WHAT YOU SAID AT THE OPENING, WE'LL HAVE TO WAIT UNTIL ALL OF THE CONTEXT OF THIS INFORMATION -- I WATCHED THAT VIDEO A THOUSAND TIMES.

AND ANYONE WHO WATCHES THE VIDEO CAN COME TO A DIFFERENT CONCLUSION ABOUT IT.

BUT I DO KNOW THIS AS A FACT.

COLUMBUS HAS A PROBLEM.

WE HAVE HAD IN THIS CITY, FROM 2015, 34 OR 38, WHICHEVER NUMBER YOU WANT, POLICE SHOOTINGS.

23 OF THOSE HAVE BEEN AFRICAN-AMERICANS.

COLUMBUS HAS BEEN RATED THE 18th LARGEST COUNTY, FRANKLIN COUNTY, WHERE WE HAVE THE MOST POLICE-INVOLVED SHOOTINGS.

THERE ARE A SERIES OF THINGS ABOUT THIS SITUATION WHERE, ONE, TO EITHER ASK WHAT WAS THE PREDISPOSITION OF THE OFFICER?

WHAT WAS THE YOUNG LADY DOING?

I DO KNOW IF THE OFFICER DID NOT HAVE A GUN AND A BADGE, HOW WOULD HE HAVE RESOLVED THIS SITUATION?

THERE'S A LOT I CAN SAY.

BUT I'LL SAVE THAT FOR THE REST OF THE SHOW.

>> OKAY, YEAH, WE'LL GET BACK TO YOU.

MIKE MILLER, HOW DO YOU SEE THIS VIDEO?

WHAT DO YOU SEE WHEN YOU WATCH WHAT HAPPENED?

>> WELL, OBVIOUSLY, MIKE, THERE'S ALWAYS -- ANY TIME ANYBODY LOSES THEIR LIFE, IT'S A SAD THING.

I SUPPOSE IT'S EVEN MORE SO, A 16-YEAR-OLD CHILD.

BUT WHAT I'VE SEEN, AND I WASN'T THERE, BUT ASSUMING THIS FILM IS ACCURATE, SOMEBODY CALLED THE POLICE DEPARTMENT.

HE DOESN'T JUST WANDER AROUND.

SOMEBODY IS TRYING TO STAB ME.

OUTSIDE IT'S PANIC TIME.

THE POLICE SEND THE PERSON THERE, HE SHOWS UP LIKE HE'S SUPPOSED TO DO.

HE SEES THIS WOMAN FALL, ANOTHER WOMAN OR GIRL, WHAT APPEARS TO BE A KNIFE IN HER HAND.

THE OFFICER REPEATEDLY TELLS HER TO GET DOWN, SHE DOESN'T, SHE RACES TOWARDS ANOTHER WOMAN, RAISES THE KNIFE, HE SHOOTS HER.

I MEAN, YOU CAN SECOND-GUESS OR MONDAY MORNING QUARTERBACK, ANYTHING, ARRIVE AT ANY CONCLUSION YOU WISH.

BUT I THINK THOSE FACTS ARE PRETTY MUCH INDISPUTABLE.

THE PEOPLE THAT WANT TO HOLD HIM ACCOUNTABLE, I DON'T THINK THE FACTS ARE GOING TO MEAN ANYTHING.

I THINK IF HE WOULD HAVE ACTUALLY DONE NOTHING, AND IF THIS 16-YEAR-OLD GIRL HAD THEN STABBED THIS PERSON, KILLED HER OR SEVERELY WOUNDED HER, I'M SURE HE WOULD BE IN FOR THE SAME CRITICISM THAT HE'S GOING TO GET NOW.

YOU KNOW, YOU DIDN'T DO ANYTHING BECAUSE YOU DIDN'T WANT TO HELP PROTECT THIS BLACK GIRL, YOU WANTED HER TO BE STABBED.

SO ANY WAY IT GOES, HE'S GOING TO GET CRITICIZED.

JUST LOOKING AT IT FROM THE LAW, I DON'T SEE ANYTHING WRONG.

YOU MAY NOT LIKE THE LAW, BUT I DON'T THINK HE'S DONE ANYTHING THAT'S IN VIOLATION OF IT.

AND PEOPLE I'VE SEEN, THE SO-CALLED EXPERTS, IF THEY REALLY EXIST, SPECIFICALLY ONE I THINK FROM BOWLING GREEN UNIVERSITY, SAID HE CAN SEE NOTHING IN THE TAPE THAT INDICATED ANY VIOLATION OF THE LAW, THE MAN WAS JUST DOING WHAT HE DID.

I DON'T KNOW.

YOU NEVER KNOW WHAT YOU'RE GOING TO DO UNTIL YOU'RE THERE.

WE ALL KNOW IT'S A SPLIT-SECOND DECISION.

AND I SUPPOSE -- AGAIN, MONDAY MORNING QUARTERBACKING, WE CAN ALWAYS SAY, I THINK I WOULD HAVE DONE THIS, HE SHOULD HAVE DONE THAT.

BUT HE DOESN'T HAVE THAT TIME.

SOMEONE HAS CALLED AND SAID THEY'RE BEING ATTACKED BY A KNIFE, HE SHOWS UP, HE SEES A WOMAN WITH A KNIFE, KNOCKING ONE PERSON DOWN, GOING AFTER ANOTHER ONE.

I DON'T KNOW THAT HE HAS ANY CHOICE.

SO SAID, YOU CAN ALWAYS -- >> SAM, LET ME PUT IT -- IF WE COULD -- IT'S IMPOSSIBLE TO SEPARATE THIS FROM WHAT'S GOING ON.

I MEAN, THIS HAPPENED 20 MINUTES BEFORE THE GUILTY VERDICTS CAME DOWN IN THE CHAUVIN CASE IN MINNESOTA.

THAT, NO DOUBT, ADDED TO THE PASSION REGARDING THIS.

WE'VE HAD TWO OTHER SHOOTINGS IN COLUMBUS IN THE PAST FEW MONTHS.

BUT LOOKING AT THIS IN PARTICULAR, THIS CASE ALONE IF YOU CAN SEPARATE IT, DO YOU SEE WHERE THIS MIGHT HAVE BEEN AN APPROPRIATE USE OF FORCE?

OR DO YOU THINK THE OFFICER COULD HAVE DONE MORE TO AVOID IT?

>> I THINK THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO HAVE STRONG POSITIONS, AND I'VE BEEN ON THE PHONE WITH SOME OF THE PEOPLE TALKING ABOUT THAT.

BUT THE HUMANITY OF IT AND HOW I WOULD HAVE HANDLED IT, GIVEN I DON'T HAVE A BADGE AND A GUN.

AND IF I FACED THIS SITUATION, I FIND A WAY TO DE-ESCALATE IT.

BY THE WAY, I'VE BEEN IN THESE SITUATIONS WITH GUNS AND KNIVES, AND NOBODY GOT KILLED, AND NOBODY WENT TO JAIL.

WHAT DOES BOTHER ME IS, DID IT TAKE FOUR SHOTS?

DID IT TAKE FOUR SHOTS?

THE GIRL, 140 POUNDS.

IT DIDN'T TAKE THAT MUCH.

EVEN IF SHE STABS, EVEN IF SHE STABS THE GIRL IN HER LEG, AND SHE WAS GOING TOWARDS THE LOWER BODY, HE STILL COULD HAVE TAKEN HER DOWN.

AGAIN, YOU COULD HAVE WORKED ON WHOEVER WAS HURT.

I KNOW PEOPLE DISAGREE WITH THAT.

BUT I DON'T BELIEVE THAT FOUR SHOTS WERE NECESSARILY TO TAKE THIS GIRL DOWN.

>> LET ME ASK YOU ABOUT THAT.

THE BODY CAMERA FOOTAGE HAS SHOWN AND THE CELL PHONE SHOOTAGE HAS SHOWN OVER THE PAST COUPLE OF YEARS THAT WHEN THERE IS A POLICE SHOOTING, OFTENTIMES THE OFFICER SHOOTS MANY SHOTS, THEY EMPTY THEIR CLIP.

THERE WAS A SHOOTING AT SYNC ANN'S HOSPITAL A COUPLE OF WEEKS AGO.

A COUPLE OF OFFICERS THERE.

THEY FIRED DOZENS OF SHOTS AT THIS MAN, WHO HAD A GUN, IN THE EMERGENCY ROOM.

SHOULD THAT POLICY BE CHANGED?

DO YOU HAVE TO SHOOT THAT MANY TIMES?

>> MICHAEL, I WORRY ABOUT THAT ALL THE TIME.

AND SEEING THAT THERE'S A PHILOSOPHICAL DIFFERENCE.

DE-ESCALATION OR COMPLIANCE AND CONTROL?

WHEN HE HIT THE SCENE HOLLERING "GET ON THE GROUND, GET ON THE GROUND" -- >> HE DID SAY, WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE TAPE, THE FIRST QUESTION WAS, WHAT'S GOING ON?

AND ALMOST IMMEDIATELY THE WOMAN CAME -- THE TEENAGER CAME TOWARDS HIM AND PUSHED THE OTHER GIRL DOWN, OR SHE FELL, WHATEVER HAPPENED, WE'RE NOT QUITE SURE.

MIKE, YOUR TAKE ON THE NUMBER OF SHOTS, AND IS THERE A WAY TO POSSIBLY DE-ESCALATE BEFORE YOU FIRST TURN TO THE GUN?

>> WELL, LET ME GET WITH THE SHOTS TO START OFF WITH.

EVERYBODY ASSUMES THAT THESE POLICEMEN, ME, YOU, ANYBODY ELSE WITH A GUN, IS ANNIE OAKLEY, THAT YOU CAN SHOOT ONE TIME AND JUST SHOOT THEM IN THE CALF.

IT'S JUST NOT REALITY, THAT'S NOT LIFE.

TV, MAYBE.

MOVIES, YES.

NOT LIFE.

THEY'RE TAUGHT TO SHOOT AT THE BODY MASS BECAUSE THAT'S THE BEST CHANCE THEY HAVE.

FOUR SHOTS REPEATEDLY, HE PROBABLY DIDN'T -- YOU COULD HARDLY TELL, IT HAPPENED SO QUICK.

SO I DON'T LOOK AT THE SHOTS AS ANYTHING OUT OF THE ORDINARY OR HORRENDOUS.

AND I UNDERSTAND WHAT SAM'S SAYING, BUT WHEN YOU SAY I WOULD TRY TO DE-ESCALATE THIS, THAT'S GREAT.

I THINK I WOULD TOO, HOPEFULLY, IF I WERE THERE.

BUT WHAT TIME DOES HE HAVE?

HE GETS A CALL THAT THERE'S A STABBING.

HE GOES, HE IMMEDIATELY SEES SOMEBODY GO DOWN, AND ANOTHER WOMAN WITH HER HAND UP WITH A KNIFE.

THIS FAR, WHATEVER, FROM THIS OTHER WOMAN.

WHAT'S HE SUPPOSED TO DO, WAIT?

UNTIL SHE'S STABBED?

AND THEN DO SOMETHING?

OR DOES HE DO THAT SOMETHING THEN TO TRY AND SAVE THIS OTHER PERSON FROM BEING STABBED, POSSIBLY MURDERED?

>> TWO THINGS I'LL TAKE INTO CONSIDERATION.

I DISAGREE, TRENDING IS ABOUT COMPLIANCE.

I DON'T THINK THAT'S THE WAY TO GO.

A LOT OF COUNTRIES OUTSIDE THE UNITED STATES DE-ESCALATE, IN FACT, THEY DON'T HAVE GUNS.

LET'S STAY WITH THE PARTICULARS HERE.

THE POLICE OFFICER HAS A VEST ON.

AM I CORRECT?

HE HAS A SHOOTING VEST ON.

THE PERSON WEIGHS LESS THAN 130 POUNDS.

SHE HAS A KNIFE.

IT IS NOT A BIG KNIFE.

IT IS NOT A VERY SHARP KNIFE FROM WHAT I SEE.

SHE IS STRIKING AT THE WAIST AND BELOW THE TORSO OF THE INDIVIDUAL.

HE COULD HAVE TACKLED THAT YOUNG LADY.

ABSORBED THE BLOWS OF THE KNIFE.

ACCOST HER.

IF SHE HAD CUT THE OTHER PERSON, THEN HE COULD HAVE STARTED OFFERING SERVICES TO HER.

I DO NOT BELIEVE IT WAS NECESSARY TO SHOOT THAT YOUNG LADY FOUR TIMES.

ONE BULLET WOULD HAVE TAKEN HER DOWN.

NOW, WOULD I THINK THE FOUR SHOTS IS ABOUT TRAINING AND ABOUT PREDISPOSITION?

WHEN YOU SAY YOU SHOOT THAT MANY TIMES ON A YOUNG GIRL, FIRST, YOU DIVORCE HER HUMANITY.

YOU DON'T SEE HER AS A YOUNG GIRL WHO IS MAYBE ACTING OUT AS A TEENAGER.

DOES SHE NEED TO DIE?

I DON'T THINK SHE NEEDS TO DIE.

OUT HERE WITH A KNIFE AND A FRIEND -- >> MIKE MILLER, I'LL GIVE YOU THE LAST WORD ON THIS.

SHOULD COPS LOOK TO OTHER OPTIONS BESIDES USING THEIR GUNS FIRST?

>> WELL, THE ARGUMENT IS BLACK AND WHITE.

HE'S CALLED BECAUSE THERE'S A STACK OR SOMETHING.

HE GOES, HE SEES ONE WOMAN DOWN, ANOTHER RAISING HER HAND.

WHAT'S HE SUPPOSED TO DO?

HE DOESN'T KNOW SHE'S 16 YEARS OLD.

SHE'S NEBRASKA WITH A KNIFE.

BELIEVE ME, 16-YEAR-OLD PEOPLE WITH KNIVES CAN KILL OTHER PEOPLE.

WHEN SHE WOULD HAVE OR NOT, WE'LL NEVER KNOW.

THE OFFICER IS REACTING.

ONE SHOT OR FOUR, TO ME, IF YOU LISTEN, THEY'RE ALL -- THEY'RE SIMULTANEOUS.

IT'S NOT LIKE HE SHOOTS AND STANDS AROUND AND WAITS TWO MINUTES AND SHOOTS AGAIN -- >> IT'S ABOUT HER HUMANITY.

IF YOU KNEW WHO THIS YOUNG LADY WAS, SHE DIDN'T DESERVE TO DIE, SHE WAS A BASKETBALL PLAYER, SHE WAS AT A HOUSE WHERE SHOULD PEOPLE CAME OVER THERE TO BEAT HER UP, SHE WAS DEFENDING HERSELF.

AND IN THIS CIRCUMSTANCE, SHE WAS ON HER WAY TO COLLEGE.

SHE HAS NO -- SHE'S NEVER HURT ANYBODY.

SHE DOESN'T HAVE A RECORD.

WHY DID SHE HAVE TO DIE?

SHE DIDN'T HAVE TO DIE.

>> DID ANYBODY TELL THAT TO THE POLICE?

DID ANYBODY SAY ANYTHING EXCEPT, COME OVER HERE, THERE'S A PERSON WITH A KNIFE TRYING TO STAB ME?

THAT'S WHAT HE KNOWS.

>> I'VE BEEN IN THAT SITUATION.

AT MY FACILITY, OTHER PLACES.

I DE-ESCALATED THE SITUATION.

I HAVE ONE THING GOING FOR ME, THE PEOPLE TRUSTED ME WHEN I CAME IN THE ROOM.

I KNEW HOW TO USE MY VOICE COMMANDS AND I KNEW WHAT TO SAY.

HE'S SUPPOSED TO BE TRAINED IN THAT.

POLICE, DROP THAT KNIFE!

THEN YOU CAN SHOOT.

>> WE'LL HAVE TO -- THIS IS A TERRIBLY TRAGIC STORY, AND WE'LL HOPEFULLY LEARN MORE IN THE DAYS AND WEEKS TO COME AS TO WHAT CAUSED IT AND WHAT THE RESULTS WILL BE.

>>> ON TO POLITICS.

WE HAVE A DEMOCRAT ON THE STATEWIDE BALLOT FOR 2022.

DAYTON MAYOR WAYNE MEILI IS RUNNING FOR GOVERNOR.

IN HER KICKOFF VIDEO SHE GOES AFTER WHAT SHE CALLS THE REPUBLICAN MONOPOLY ON POWER AT THE STATEHOUSE.

>> WE COULD USE A LITTLE MORE TOUGH IN COLUMBUS, A LITTLE BIT OF STRENGTH.

STRENGTH OF CHARACTER TO CALL OUT RIGHT FROM WRONG.

>> WHAT DO YOU HAVE TO SAY TO OHIOANS -- >> BECAUSE RIGHT NOW, CORRUPTION, CRONYISM, CRIMINAL CONDUCT IS JUST THE WAY THINGS ARE DONE.

AND OUR LEADERS ARE TOO WEAK TO DO SOMETHING.

>> DO SOMETHING, GO SOMETHING!

>> TIM GRESHAM, DOES THAT EXCITE DEMOCRATS?

>> MICHAEL, I DON'T KNOW WHAT IT'S GOING TO TAKE TO EXCITE DEMOCRATS.

THEY NEED A BETTER ORGANIZATION.

THEY NEED BETTER LEADERSHIP.

AND THEY NEED A FIVE-YEAR PLAN.

THEY DON'T HAVE A FIVE-YEAR PLAN.

THE REPUBLICAN PARTY HAD A FIVE TO EIGHT-YEAR PLAN WHERE THEY WERE DEVELOPING PEOPLE.

YOUNGSTOWN, RUNNING FOR -- >> TIM RYAN.

>> PROBABLY THE BEST-KNOWN NAMES ACROSS THE STATE THAT THE DEMOCRATS HAVE.

I THINK REPUBLICANS HAVE A FORMIDABLE GROUP OF -- DeWINE'S GOING TO BE HARD TO BEAT.

I THINK THE DEMOCRATS NEED A FIVE-YEAR PLAN.

BECAUSE IF THEY DON'T, DeWINE'S GOING TOO WIN.

THEY SEEM TO HAVE CANDIDATES WITH BETTER NAME RECOGNITION.

>> MIKE MILLER, NAN WHALEY, SHE AND MIKE DeWINE HAVE HAD A PRETTY CORDIAL RELATIONSHIP OVER THE PAST COUPLE OF YEARS.

NAN WHALEY RAN FOR GOVERNOR IN 2018, LEFT THE RACE BEFORE THE PRIMARY.

SHE NEVER ACTUALLY HAD TO RUN AGAINST HIM.

BUT AFTER THE SHOOTING, THEY WENT TO A COUPLE OF DIFFERENT EVENTS TOGETHER.

THEY ACTUALLY WENT TO A -- THEY MADE A JOINT APPEARANCE AT A VACCINE CLINIC IN THE NOT TOO RECENT PAST.

BUT NOW SHE'S GOING AFTER HIM, WHICH OF COURSE SHE HAS TO IF SHE'S GOING TO RUN AGAINST HIM.

IT'S INTERESTING, WOULD BE AN INTERESTING CAMPAIGN SHOULD SHE MAKE TO IT THE PRIMARIES.

>> WELL, I SAW THE -- WHAT YOU PUT ON, I SAW THE WHOLE THING.

TO ME IT'S POLITICAL SPIN.

SHE DOESN'T HAVE TO GO TO DeWINE, CALLING WHAT SHE SAID INADEQUATE, SOMETHING LIKE THAT -- IT JUST SEEMED TO ME POLITICAL SPIN.

I WAS NOT IMPRESSED BY IT AT ALL.

WHY SHE HAS TO DO THAT, WHY SHE CAN'T JUST COME FORWARD AND SAY, I WANT TO BE GOVERNOR, I THINK I CAN DO THIS, THIS, THIS, HELP THINGS, THIS IS WHAT I WANT TO DO.

INSTEAD OF COMING IN, JUMPING ON DeWINE, THEN THE CORRUPTNESS THAT SEEPS THROUGH EVERYBODY, YOU KNOW.

THE FEDERAL PEOPLE, HOUSEHOLDER, THAT'S WHAT I'M AWARE OF.

IT JUST TO ME -- I'D LIKE TO SEE A CAMPAIGN ALL THE WAY THROUGH ON A HIGH LEVEL.

MAYBE THAT'S IMPOSSIBLE IN THIS DAY AND AGE.

>> ON THAT NOTE -- I THINK SAM ANSWERED THAT QUESTION.

ANYWAY.

LOOKING TO MOVE UP THE POLITICAL LADDER, STEVE STIVERS IS JUMPING OFF.

HE SAID HE WAS MOMENTS AWAY FROM LAUNCHING A U.S. SENATE BID, TOOK THE JOB AS PRESIDENT AND CEO OF OHIO CHAMBER OF COMMERCE.

A JUMP IN PAY, DOUBLE WHAT HE MAKES IN CONGRESS, AND THE ABILITY TO LIVE FULL-TIME CLOSE TO HIS WIFE AND CHILDREN PROMPTED HIS DECISION.

HE SAYS HE'S NOT LEAVING CONGRESS BECAUSE OF FRUSTRATION WITH PARTISAN GRIDLOCK BUT HE ADMIT IT'S A PROBLEM.

>> I AGREE WE NEED TO DO BETTER, BUT CONGRESS REPRESENTS ITS CONSTITUENTS.

IT'S NOT THAT CONGRESS IS DIVIDED, AMERICA IS DIVIDED.

WHEN YOU TALK TO YOUR LISTENERS AND FOLKS ACROSS THE STATE OF OHIO, YOU KNOW, IF YOU'RE IN LOGAN, OHIO, IN HAWKING COUNTY, VIEWPOINT.

IN URBAN COLUMBUS, YOU'LL HEAR A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT VIEWPOINT.

WE'VE GOT TO DO A BETTER JOB OF BRINGING PEOPLE TOGETHER, AND FRANKLY, MIKE, THAT'S WHY I AM EXCITED ABOUT THE NEW ROLE.

>> OFTENTIMES POLITICIANS WILL SAY, I'M LEAVING MY JOB BECAUSE I WANT TO SPEND MORE TIME WITH MY FAMILY.

IN THIS CASE, YOU KNOW WHAT, I BELIEVE STEVE STIVERS, WANTS TO COME BACK TO COLUMBUS.

>> I DO TOO, I BELIEVE HIM.

WHEN HE SAYS HE'S GOING TO MAKE TWICE THE MONEY HE'S MAKING NOW, GET TO SEE THE FAMILY ON A REGULAR BASE, WHAT I WOULD THINK IS A MORE HECTIC LIFE, I DON'T BLAME HIM ONE BIT.

I DO THINK, HOWEVER, THAT THE ENJOYMENT OF BEING IN CONGRESS IS NOT WHAT IT USED TO BE.

I CAN RECALL, OH, MAYBE 15 YEARS AGO, I THINK THERE WERE SIX SENATORS WHO DECIDED NOT TO RUN FOR RE-ELECTION.

AND THEY WERE SPLIT, I THINK THREE DEMOCRATS, THREE REPUBLICANS, MAYBE FOUR AND TWO.

TWO THINGS.

FROM THE DAY THE ELECTION IS OVER, THE VERY NEXT DAY YOU START RAISING MONEY.

AND IT GOES ON FOR SIX YEARS OR A CONGRESSIONAL SEAT, TWO YEARS.

AND THERE IS NO -- THE DEALINGS WITH THE OTHER SIDE IS SO DIFFICULT.

THE CONGENIALITY THERE USED TO BE, YOU KNOW -- IT USED TO BE WE'D ALWAYS GO BACK TO, AT LEAST RECENTLY, TIP O'NEILL AND RONALD REAGAN.

ARGUED ALL THE TIME, THIS AND THAT, WHATEVER ISSUE THIS AND THAT, PUBLICLY.

WHEN IT'S OVER, GO AND HAVE A DRINK TOGETHER.

I WISH WE HAD A WORLD LIKE THAT, AND I DON'T THINK WE HAVE IT NOW.

>> SAM GRESHAM, STEVE STIVERS IS A CONSERVATIVE BUT WHAT IS CALLED A REASONABLE.

HE WOULD DO THINGS WITH JOYCE BAILEY, THE CONGRESSWOMAN FROM COLUMBUS.

IF HE LEAVES, WHO REPLACES HIM?

IS IT A BAD SIGN THAT A LOT OF REASONABLE REPUBLICANS LIKE ROB PORTMAN, STEVE STIVERS, HAVE DECIDED TO PURSUE JOBS OR LIVES OUTSIDE OF WASHINGTON?

>> WELL, FIRST OF ALL, I NEED TO SAY, I KNOW STEVE.

STEVE WAS ON THE BOARD AT THE URBAN LEAGUE WHEN I SERVED THERE.

HE'S A DECENT GUY.

BUT IT'S A BIT MORE COMPLEX.

THERE'S GOING TO BE A REDISTRICTING SCENARIO COMING UP AS SOON AS THE CENSUS GIVES THE STATEHOUSE THE DATA.

AND THE DISTRICT THAT STEVE HAS, BOY.

IT WAS ALMOST AS BAD AS THE SNAKE ON THE LAKE.

SO I DON'T THINK THAT DISTRICT EXISTS.

BUT I DON'T -- I COULDN'T THINK OF A BETTER PERSON TO RUN THE COLUMBUS CHAMBER OF COMMERCE THAN STEVE STIVERS, AT THIS POINT.

>> MIKE MILLER, STEVE STIVERS SAID IF HE DIDN'T GET THE JOB AT THE CHAMBER, HE WAS GOING TO RUN FOR SENATE.

HE'D RAISED $1.5 MILLION, JUST ABOUT, THE FIRST FEW MONTHS OF THIS YEAR.

COULD HE HAVE BEEN REALLY STRONG, COULD HE HAVE WON THAT PRIMARY?

>> I DON'T THINK HE WOULD WIN IT.

I THINK HE WOULD BE STRONG BUT THERE ARE OTHER PEOPLE IN THERE, MANDEL, CANNON, WHO ARE WELL KNOWN, I THINK THEY CAN BOTH RAISE MONEY.

I THINK IT WOULD HAVE BEEN A HORSE RACE.

WHETHER HE WOULD HAVE WON OR NOT, I CAN'T SAY.

BUT HE WOULD CERTAINLY HAVE BEEN A STRONG CANDIDATE.

>> CAN I ANSWER THAT?

>> GO AHEAD, SAM.

>> THE REPUBLICANS HAVE A STRONG STABLE OF CANDIDATES WITH HIGH NAME RECOGNITION ALL OVER THE STATE.

BUT THE DEMOCRATS ARE BUILDING A STABLE OF CANDIDATES WITH THE HEART COMING OUT OF COLUMBUS.

YOU'VE GOT ZACH, YOU'VE GOT MAYER, YOU'VE GOT LOTS OF PEOPLE ON CITY COUNCIL WHO ARE CAPABLE.

YOU'VE GOT KEVIN BOYD.

SO THERE IS A DEPTH BEING DEVELOPED BY THE DEMOCRATS THAT IS GOING TO ALLOW THEM, I'D SAY THREE OR FOUR YEARS FROM NOW, TO BE AGE TO COMPETE ON A STATEWIDE BASIS IF THOSE CANDIDATES DECIDE TO DO WHAT THEY WANT TO DO.

THERE ARE A COUPLE OF CANDIDATES, IF THEY ARE SERIOUS ABOUT RUNNING FOR STATEWIDE OFFICE, THERE ARE SOME CANDIDATE S THAT ARE DEVELOPING YOUNG PEOPLE.

SO I DON'T THINK THIS LACK OF COMPETITIVENESS ON THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY STANDPOINT IS GOING TO LAST LONG.

AT MOST FOUR, FIVE YEARS.

AND THEY'RE GOING TO BE COMPETITIVE.

IF THEY GET A GOOD STATE EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR.

>> ALL RIGHT.

>>> IT WAS KIND OF A GOOD NEWS, KIND OF BAD NEWS KIND OF WEEK IN OHIO'S BATTLE AGAINST COVID.

THE GOOD NEWS, AFTER RISING FOR SEVERAL WEEKS, THE NUMBER OF NEW CASES IN OHIO HAS PLATEAUED.

THE BAD NEWS, THE RATE OF NEW CASES IS STILL PRETTY HIGH.

THE GOOD NEWS, 38% OF OHIOANS HAVE RECEIVED AT LEAST ONE VACCINE SHOT.

THE BAD NEWS, AFTER SEVERAL WEEKS OF RAPID INCREASES, THE RATE OF VACCINATION HAS SLOWED.

HEALTH OFFICIALS AND PRIVATE COMPANIES ARE OFFERING INCENTIVES TO GET THE SHOT.

WHITE CASTLE IS GIVING AWAY FREE DESSERTS FOR PEOPLE WHO GET THE JAB.

SAM GRESHAM, THE CASES ARE STARTING TO COME DOWN A LITTLE BIT.

DO YOU THINK WE HAVE TURNED WHAT WE HOPE IS THE FINAL CORNER ON THIS PANDEMIC?

>> MICHAEL, I HOPE SO.

BECAUSE WE'VE ABSOLUTELY COMMITTED OURSELVES TO HERD COMMUNITY.

AND IF WE DON'T GET THAT 85%, 90% LEVEL, WE'RE GOING TO REALLY BE IN TROUBLE IN THIS COUNTRY.

AND NOW WE'VE GOT VARIANTS AND A NEW WAVE.

I UNDERSTAND THE HESITANCY ON ALL PARTS OF THE COMMUNITY, WITH THE EXCEPTION OF THE POLITICAL HESITANCY, PURELY FOR THAT PURPOSE.

BUT WE'RE GOING TO HAVE TO MAKE THIS WORK, BECAUSE WE'VE COMMITTED OURSELVES TO IT.

AND WE HAVE NO OTHER ALTERNATIVE.

>> MIKE MILLER, THE GOVERNOR THIS WEEK, HE HAS SET THIS BAR AT 50 CASES FOR EVERY 100,000 POPULATION FOR TWO WEEKS.

IF WE HIT THAT LEVEL, HE WILL LIFT ALL THE HEALTH RESTRICTIONS.

WE'RE AT LIKE 185, NOT CLOSE RIGHT NOW.

BUT IT DID COME DOWN A BIT THIS WEEK.

THE GOVERNOR SAID HE'D LOOK AT OTHER THINGS.

KENTUCKY, FOR INSTANCE, IS -- THEY SET THEIR BAR AT 2.5 MILLION PEOPLE VACCINATED.

THEY'RE ABOUT 800,000 AWAY.

SHOULD THE GOVERNOR CHANGE WHAT THE BAR IS FOR LIFTING THE RESTRICTIONS?

>> WELL, "SHOULD" IS A DIFFERENT QUESTION.

DO I THINK HE WILL?

I'M NOT GOING TO SAY HE SHOULD, BUT I THINK HE WILL.

IF IT COMES DOWN LOW, IF WE GET 100 AS OPPOSED TO THE 50, THERE'S GOING TO COME A POINT WHERE I THINK THE EXPERTS WILL SAY, IT IS NOW GOING TO HURT US MORE TO KEEP IT THIS WAY, LET'S GET THE ECONOMY ROLLING AGAIN, LET'S DO SOME STUFF.

I THINK, YOU KNOW -- I DON'T KNOW WHAT THE NUMBER IS, BUT I THINK CLEVELAND IS LIKE 16% OR SOMETHING AND THEY THINK MAY 1st THEY CAN HAVE 40% OF THE PEOPLE IN THE STADIUM.

ITY THAT GRADUAL CHANGE IS GOING TO HAPPEN.

I DO NOT THINK HE WILL STICK TO THE 50, THE NUMBER OF 50.

I DON'T THINK HE'LL CHANGE IF IT'S 185 NOW THAT HE'S GOING TO SAY 175 IS ENOUGH.

>> NO.

>> I THINK IF YOU DROP DOWN A GOOD AMOUNT, BUT NOT QUITE 50, HE'LL DO IT.

>>> "OFF THE RECORD" FINAL PARTING SHOTS, MIKE MILLER, YOU'RE FIRST.

>> I JUST WOULD LIKE TO SEE A SITUATION WHERE WE ALL GET ALONG BETTER, TO QUOTE RODNEY KING.

LIKE THIS SITUATION.

SAM AND I DISAGREE ON A LOT OF THINGS.

TODAY I THINK WE AGREED ABOUT EVERYTHING EXCEPT THE FIRST ISSUE.

BUT WHEN WE HAVE THESE PROBLEMS, AND I KNOW SAM IS OF ONE POLITICAL WILL AND I'M THE OTHER ONE, BUT WHEN WE HAVE THESE THINGS AND WE'RE TOGETHER, NOT VIRTUAL, SAM AND I WILL STAND IN THE PARKING LOT FOR 10 OR 15 MINUTES AND WE ENJOY EACH OTHER.

WE DISAGREE, BUT WE LIKE EACH OTHER.

WE TRY AND WORK SOMETHING OUT.

AND I WISH THE COMMUNITY WOULD DO THAT ON OTHER ISSUES.

I THINK IT WOULD MAKE FOR A BETTER WORLD AND A MUCH MORE ENJOYABLE ONE.

>> SAM GRESHAM?

>> MIKE WAS A PROSECUTOR, WE WORKED OUT SOME DEALS.

I WANT TO SAY THAT WE WORKED OUT SOME THINGS THAT NEED TO BE TAKEN CARE OF.

MY CONCERN IS THIS ESCALATING SHOOTING THING.

PEOPLE DIDN'T LISTEN TO WHAT I SAID.

WE HAVE 38 SHOOTINGS IN 2015.

WE ARE 18th IN THE COUNTRY FOR LARGE COUNTIES.

WE'VE HAD EIGHT SHOOTINGS ALREADY IN 2020.

THIS COMMUNITY NEEDS TO COME TOGETHER, FIGURE OUT WHAT WE'RE GOING TO DO.

THE POLICE ADVISORY COMMITTEE, WHATEVER.

THESE STUDENTS HAVE -- >> SAM, WE'VE GOT TO CUT YOU OFF, WE'RE RUNNING OUT OF TIME.

THANKS FOR JOINING US THIS WEEK ON "COLUMBUS ON THE RECORD."

WOSU.ORG, TWITTER, FACEBOOK, ALL THAT GOOD STUFF.

FOR SAM AND MIKE, I'M MIKE THOMPSON.

FOR OUR CREW AT WOSU, HAVE A GOOD WEEK.